Teach me about Sonny Liston.

OK, I will defend him here.

Head to head he was one of the most complete heavyweights of all time. What separates him from most of the other great heavyweight punchers, is that if you took away his power, he would still have been an exceptional fighter. He could punch, but he could also box, and he was a superb ring general, with a natural ability to anticipate his opponents. He had the talent to go as far as he wanted, and he probably should have been a lot more successful than he was.

His resume is a bit thin compared to other all time greats, but some context is needed. No other heavyweight in history, with the exception of Mike Tyson, has ever destroyed the reigning lineal champion inside one round, however strong or weak that champion was. Just to show that it was not a fluke, he repeated it in the rematch. Some would argue that Patterson was a weak champion, but outside of his two losses to Liston, he looks a lot like a middle of the pack champion. Let us not forget that Patterson was ranked in the top ten for more years than any other heavyweight champion. It takes an exceptional fighter to maintain that sort of consistency, over that span of time!

 

I used to think the same thing as you, but that expression of his is actually common. Sonny had that “terrified child” look in many of his later fights. Many of which he wins.

 

I guess my main criticism of Liston would be that he relied heavily on his technique, and never really deviated from it. Which I think made him somewhat predictable and overly mechanical during portions of certain fights where he was close to losing, and needed to do something different to get back in it. He could’ve had a healthier lifestyle too.

Having said that, he is still in my book one of the best fighters ever. A perfect fantasy matchup fighter.

 

Meaning his measurements and the way he was built. For example, his chest and arm measurements I heard were about the same as Lennox Lewis measurements. Essentially, he had the frame of a bigger man.

 

You can only judge fighters by the era they fought in. Say for instance, 50 or 100 years from now, they have genetically engineered boxers or fighters can enhance their abilities via nanotechnology or whatever. So you have a 7' 300 pound of muscle fighter that has the speed of a prime Roy Jones with the punching power of a super George Foreman and the skills of a prime Ray Robinson. And lets say at that time, the average heavy is 6'5 275 pounds and they are relatively skilled as well. Well, someone trying to judge Mike Tyson, Lennox Lewis or Anthony Joshua on the premise that they never beat any skilled 275+ pound heavies so therefore they weren't "real heavyweights" or didn't hit hard would be silly. By the standards of their time (which by 2068 or 2118, the 1990's or the 2010's would be the "old days") they were heavyweights who beat heavyweights. Plus, a fighter the weight of Tyson or Lewis or AJ who can hit as hard as they can would probably be able to hurt any man of any size.

So Liston beat many of the best of his time and proved his punching power against them. In 1960, Eddie Machen would've been considered a "real heavyweight" by anyone's standard. And, a man of Liston's size with his punching power could theoretically hurt any man of any size. Bit of triangle theory here, but Ali hit hard enough to hurt a young Foreman, but Liston hit significantly harder than Ali, so Liston theoretically could hit hard enough to hurt Foreman. If one could punch hard enough to hurt Foreman, one could in theory hurt any heavy around today.

 

Plus, I'd argue that Patterson was more formidable than many give him credit for. He'd easily be one of the best ever fighters between 175-200 pounds and it's speculated that had he remained at light heavy, he'd have been an ATG. I guess his only problem may have been continuing to make the light heavy limit and how that may have impacted his performance, for example, Max Schmeling was actually better at heavy than light heavy because he was draining to much off of his body to make light heavy. But assuming Patterson could've made light heavy without sacrificing his attributes that made him great, he'd easily be one of the greatest ever at that weight. And there are only a handful of fighters one could consistently favor over Patterson at 175-200. The only one I'd favor over him consistently would've been Rocky Marciano.....all others I'd say it'd be hit or miss about them beating Patterson, even if I did favor them more often than not. Ezzard Charles comes to mind. I'd slightly favor him to win more often than not, but out of a series of fights, Patterson beats him at least once.

And, Patterson even at 182-190ish pounds could give many modern sized heavies a run for their money or even beat them. I think that Liston's win over Patterson would look a lot more impressive if you could put him in the ring with a line of McCall, Berbick, Rahman, Stewart, Molina even Morrison or Mercer type heavyweights. Sure, they may beat Patterson, but Patterson would have a live chance against any of them. Lets say Patterson could fight Tommy Morrison and took him the distance or even beat him, it'd make Liston's win over Patterson look that much more impressive.

 

No need to fear catching hell (yet) as other than yourself and a handful of recycled trolls most here are gentlemen unless provoked .. that being said this is a perfect post from you because it shows that aside from being an archivist and box score regurgitator you have zero knowledge of the sport as an analyst, likely why you live on a classic forum but have zero reputation for actually picking winners.

Who did Liston not fight and soundly defeat prior to Ali ? DeJohn, Valdez, Williams, Folley, Machen, he cleaned out the division the way few men ever have. Ingo was way too smart to even consider going near him ...( I won't even mention Harris who was so bad D'Amato actually allowed Patterson to fight him) .. . you discount Williams, Foley and Machen and support D'Amato's surgical and blatant navigation of Patterson's reign ducking the best fighters while Liston fought and beat them all. For six years he was the best heavyweight on the planet. He then got old, was inactive, arrogant and unfocused and came up against an all time great talent with a terrific style match up and lost .. then certainly quit in a rematch for reasons never confirmed but certainly analyzed to boredom. Post thirty five or older who cares as he was past his physical prime, not remotely focused and picked up fights to pay bills. For you to call him a coward for getting flattened at close to forty is pure Klompton venomous speculation.

Liston was a magnificent terror in his prime. No one really knows his age but from 58 - 62 he was highly skilled and exceptionally strong, a murderously hard puncher with ether hand, had an exceptional jab, a gigantic reach, a very good chin and stamina and was more then technically sound. His prison background, lack of education, pre-1960's sociological upbringing and sullen default mask has all contributed to his myth/aura .. he was the first of his kind in the heavyweight division , the black destroyer who could not be avoided by the color line and he scared the hell out of white America in the pre-Civil Rights 1960s ..

 

I see david tua destroying patterson probably even faster than liston... Was tua a great hw?

 

No, and we can't award him a win over Patterson, without stepping into the ring.

 

I think that his punch resistance probably is an issue when matching him with the better punchers in the divisions history.

The common factor in the fighters that knocked him out, is that they were doing the same to other men ranked in the top five.

Their credentials as punchers, were not built against B level opposition.

I think that it takes more than a big punch here!

 

Please janitor... Please... You know like me that tua would blast patterson like an insect... Why? Because he was heavier than liston as strong and i would bet that he did hit harder and got a better chin too

 

It's nowhere near a given.
Liston was a much better boxer than Tua.

 

Ali was better boxer than foreman still george did much better against norton and frazier. Tua would kill patterson in a one sided masacre not even competitive

 

He was a great puncher.I doubt Tua,or anyone else could improve on Liston's 4 minutes and 16 seconds total for this two fights with Patterson.