1977 George Foreman vs Chris Byrd

I went with Byrd by decision. I don’t think Foreman’s head was in boxing anymore and Byrd was the right guy to take advantage of that as did Young

 

Yup that’s the way I lean towards. Foreman was clearly not the same fighter post-Ali.

 

Foreman was a mental wreck and looking to retire Byrd by decision.

 

Actually by the time of his bout with Young, George was on a roll. He was on the verge of a title shot vs Ali and his “walk away” from the sport after losing to Ali in 1974 was well in the rear view mirror. Things were going well with his new trainer Gil Clancy who taught George to pace himself.

George nearly stopped Young in round 7 and Young himself doubted he would last the round. In the end however Foreman exhausted himself and lost a clear decision.

I think a Foreman Byrd fight in 1977 is 60/40 Byrd via decision.

 

"Things were certainly not going well with Clancy as it pertains to Foreman's style.

Well it's clear as day Foreman was objectively a very different fighter upon his return from Zaire. He was replaced by a noticeably less aggressive, version who paced himself, which on paper should've made him a better fighter but it didn't.

Also, Clancy tried to change Foreman's stance and body mechanics. He made Foreman bring his feet to close together, which prevented Foreman from utilizing all of his power and left him off balance quite a bit (perhaps never more apparent in the 7th round against Young when he had him ready to go), his jab also became notably weaker and though it still looked good, it was more or less just there, when before it was a beautiful weapon that could stun and stagger very durable ATGs such as Frazier. The first time it was very noticeable was against Dino Dennis

Another example of Foreman's style changing is his fight with Lyle. JT explains it better than I ever could in this post below

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Young certainly didn't beat Foreman by slugging with him.

Foreman barely threw a punch with bad intentions in the first 2 minutes of the Lyle bout. He patiently circled around concentrating on the jab, even doubling it up. He was on his toes at a few points. He threw a couple of harder shots just before Lyle caught him with a whopping right hand around 2.30. Foreman spent the rest of the round on the defensive from an aggressive Lyle.

Foreman came out on his toes in round 2 trying to establish the jab. Lyle is absolutely the aggressor. Foreman is circling and conceding ground. He then wings a few hard shots before trying to establish the jab again. Lyle puts the pressure on and Foreman hurts him. Foreman finally opens up and goes after him. He then has Lyle on the ropes and actually pumps plenty of jabs between harder punches. With Lyle in trouble Foreman is still measuring his punches and staying quite calm, very likely due to the Ali loss and an attempt to conserve.

Even at this late point i would absolutely contend Foreman is not fighting as a "slugger". Foreman already has his post Ali team with Clancy and co. in place and you can see the difference and some of what he is trying to change/achieve. The Young fight is just 14 months later. Seriously tho - A guy moving forward on Foreman basically constantly and he's trying to jab and box? This would be a Foreman wet dream pre Ali. It would have been war right from the beginning. This isn't pre Ali Foreman, it's post Ali Foreman/Clancy.

I've just watched the first 3 rounds of Foreman - Young again. Foreman is doing very very little excepting the attempted bullying of Young. Foreman has not trapped Young on the ropes at all and is just content to follow him around. He's not even overly trying to establish the jab because Jimmy is too slick and owns a good jab himself. He is far slicker and more elusive than Ron, that's plain to see. We've gone 3 rounds and Foreman has landed nothing noteworthy and is just slowly tiring himself out. He was just ambling the first two rounds against Ron too. He was busier with the jab but only because Lyle was easier to jab against and didn't offer up much jab wise of his own.

So in summing up i find Foreman fighting basically the same vs Lyle and Young. He's trying to box and conserve stamina early. Lyle eventually pushed the fight toward a street brawl thru his own continued offensive success and also thru being vulnerable himself at times. I find the Foreman in both these fights distinctly different to the one from Ali and back. Absolutely understand the improvements they were trying to make but i really don't think they were meant for this version of George, as orthodox and sensible as they were.

This more conservative version of Foreman would have been beaten by plenty imo. I can't see him beating the likes of Holmes, Lewis and co. The unbeaten version i wouldn't take many at all against him. Just my take.
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Their's a reason Foreman dropped all of Clancy's teachings in his comeback.

Another thing is Foreman's fight with Frazier. Foreman NEVER should've needed 5 rounds to get rid of Frazier, let alone this shot, obese, half blind version of Frazier he did face. He was also visibly rocked, sported a black eye, and may even have dropped a round or so. Does anyone here really think this version of Frazier would've made it 5 with '73 Foreman? Hell does anyone here think this version of Frazier would've made it even 2?

That's not even to mention his mental state, and shattered confidence following his loss to Ali. I don't even want to go into the Toronto 5 circus.

Another thing, is Foreman flew into Puerto Rico less than 24 hours before the bout, not letting him acclimatize not only to the temperature, but the change in environment as well. He was also visibly dehydrated, having gassed badly despite his relatively tame output, and was diagnosed with heat prostration and heat exhaustion so it wasn't merely an excuse like many others call it.

Copied and pasted from a post of mine on Friday as part of a separate discussion. https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/eddie-futchs-favorites.669790/page-3#post-22468716

 

Written in retrospect not understanding the circumstances and outcomes of the times.

Foreman could not have been more rusty going into the Lyle bout.

Foreman had to change his style. He was exposed during his fight with Ali. Thus the change in coaches and a new direction.

The whole point was to pace himself and not burn himself out. The realization was Foreman hit so hard he did not need to try so hard. Eventually the destructive blows land, as they did nearly end the Young bout in round 7, and the bouts over. As they did vs Frazier the second time. Each bout was a stepping stone and learning curve to the ultimate destination a second bout with Ali.

It was the correct direction as he was not beating Ali with the same tactics and style that lost him the title in 74. In todays world so far removed from those times looking in retrospect without all the details I can see your points. However it’s a very slanted viewpoint circa 1975-1977.

 

I don’t think any version of George Foreman could beat Chris Byrd. It might be shocking for some but Chris Byrd despite his reputation was in fact a similar size as George Foreman whatever people may say. I just think that’s an interesting observation.

 

Rarely is it a question of size. Foreman hit ten times harder than Byrd and was probably many times stronger. Styles makes fights and because of styles, not size, Byrd probably has the advantage. George has the punchers chance at any time over the first half of the bout.

 

I liked byrd, very much, I think Jimmy Young was a bit better than him, so Foreman probably wins it, 1 knockdown more, close rounds.... and all.

 

Well the question of size does come up here often - I’m bringing it up because perhaps people seeing Byrd fighting in the previous era may imagine him much smaller then GF when he was very similar in his dimensions which may give some, some pause. Potentially “unnatural” or not.

 

I don't see Byrd or Young able to take the punishment from pre Zaire Foreman.

 

Fair enough. I can see your point. On paper, these changes Clancy made to Foreman's style should've made him a better fighter but they didn't. I don't think any version of Frazier should've went 5 with Foreman... let alone a half blind, shot, fat, war torn, Frazier. I don't think this version of Frazier goes past even the first round against the Foreman he faced three years earlier.

 

This is the same guy who thinks Bonecrusher would beat Foreman, disparages Foreman whenever he gets the chance, and swears he doesn't have an agenda. Nothing but a troll. I'd put him on ignore if I were you, as I have.

 

I don’t know if Young is overall better, maybe on his best day his ceiling was a little higher. Byrd didn’t lose to a ten fight novice however.