Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

Now you are changing the narrative. Nowhere have I suggested that I'd encourage Holmes to fight Foreman at his own game, I simply commented that I believe he has the attributes to beat him in a firefight if, for whatever reason, he had to. Again, and for clarity, you disagree, and make some good points to support your argument. That's cool man. I disagree with you. And manage to do so without using sarcastic or belittling language. But that's my choice I guess. Like Holmes, I could use these more basic tactics to try to win a 'fight', but I choose not to. Peace and love always brother man, Px

 

Exactly. And George took a few very decent Frazier hooks in fight 1 that barely shifted him.

Tbh, I’m surprised he didn’t fold like a cheap suit given that questionable chin of his.

Maybe there was another “George Foreman” going around in the 70s - and perhaps some people are getting him confused with the “George” that we’re clearly talking about.

 

Many variables to consider for ring rust, having a big payday, performing in front of massive global audiences, the world was watching Ali and that's a lot of weight, being away from that kind of stimuli and the other guy being better habituated to it, there is also the planning fallacy which is simply no matter how well you try to plan ahead for something it can still all go wrong, something like Leonard's secret fights were maybe just wishful thinking and unnecessary CTE risk, there was no tune up adequate for facing someone like Frazier or Tyson, Ali didn't just simply shake off the rust to beat Frazier, he changed/adapted his approach completely

 

Glass chin in the 70's

 

What do you think of Tyson Fury? The plan he used against Wilder in 3 or 2? It’s been since it happened for me last time I watched that bout.
Fury is sort of the perfect foil to Foreman in a brawl TF gets on you like a fire blanket every chance he gets (60lbs heavier) he’d lean in on the much shorter Foreman, head lock him, hit an hold, lay on him till he dropped to the canvas etc. Fury did all of it a bunch to Wilder he’d use his range to get in and do some damage then lock up, maul around a bit and waste DW’s legs struggling under his girth. TF’s boxing skills may have been exaggerated (even by me) but his ability to maul and man handle smaller opponents is top shelf really his “comeback”s best success was when he imposed his caveman like inside fighting. TF would get his shoulder in rip the uppercut just like with Wilder that’s day 1 stuff for dealing with square hips and his best punch is probably the short jab / long hook which is the exact foil for that outstretched guard of Foreman’s it’s how Ali set up his right. I just can’t see the 217lbs Foreman rushing TF fighting like a “big guy” and wailing away without being locked up, shoved around and uppercutted into submission.

 

A lot of people took a lot of left hooks from Frazier he was an attrition puncher it was a byproduct of (try not to blow up) not being able to throw a left hook properly (seriously) Joe Frazier by the words in his book didn’t throw it properly (it’s a fact) he lost a lot of concussive force by throwing it off his lead foot which is also why his right hand was “eh” he didn’t shift his weight, it was an “at” the target punch not a “through” the target punch like the sledgehammer Louis wielded. Foreman was felled like a tree by Ron Lyle his only puncher opponent in the 70s that was whilst still fresh in round one - The first right hand is all it took and that isn’t a good case for Foreman having an iron chin like Ali, McCall or Cobb none of those guys would react that way, Ali factually didn’t he ate them like candy.

 

Is anyone suggesting he has a questionable chin? I'd say his chin is well above average...his second career proved that. Young George's problem was his energy management, his gas tank. When he is tired he makes mistakes. He was much more defensively prudent in his second career, managed his tank much better, much more efficient use of his energy and his 'chin' became even more impregnable. Nobody is knocking young George or old George out with a single shot...and i dunno if anyone is knocking Old George out, period...

 

Agree with this 100%.

 

Well obviously they're not equivalent layoffs. Foreman's was a few months past a year, Leonard was what, 3+ years and had a detached retina? The other difference is Foreman's confidence was shattered after his first loss. Were people saying they were the same level of rust?

Yes, Brewster won an amazing fight against a taller, hard hitting athletic Wladmir. No one can take that win from him. The only asterisk* I'll add is Wladmir wasn't at the peak of his career, but it's still a very notable win. Brewster also showed tons of balls getting off the floor against such a dangerous puncher.

Yes, Lewis pulled off an amazing win against Vitali in a fight he had no business winning. He was old, Vitali was young. He was flabby, Vitali chiseled. His gas tank was on E, Vitali had the gas tank of a Toyota. Lewis was also losing most of the rounds and getting out slugged. For a past his prime champ to refuse to pass the torch to the young lion is one hell of a feat few can manage. The only two asterisks against Lewis are 1) while the cut was legitimate, it was a very unusual freakish cut and it essentially bailed him out. One could argue Lewis was headed for a KO loss or a lopsided decision in Vits favor. 2) Many people didn't think Lewis should've ended his career without settling the score given that Vitali was raring to go. He wasn't obligated of course, but it would've been nice. That goes to show a lot of people weren't really sold on Lewis in that fire fight and to this day, some people argue Vitali wasn't done justice (I disagree, but I'm just saying it's a hot topic).

Yes, Tua vs Ike was quite the spectacle and all credit is due to Ike for beating a dangerous slugger like Tua. But there's an asterisk for this win too because Ike had literally less than 1/4 the number of fights Foreman had been in.

You say "it won't do to isolate facts" while failing to provide a single similar example.the reason I isolated those facts is because they make Foreman's performance unique and very impressive. To my knowledge, nobody else took a long layoff after a loss and fought a dangerous slugger getting off the floor to emerge victorious. There's a reason it won fight of the year. There were question marks around Foreman's heart after Zaire and he exceeded all expectations.

None of the boxers you mentioned destroyed a lineal, undefeated champion slugger like Frazier in 2 rounds either. Again, Lyle is not the only dangerous hard puncher 70's Foreman beat.

So now comes the elephant in the room:

-Is Brewster beating Foreman? Highly doubtful. He's tough and game, but I see him getting hammered by Foreman's jab, shoved back, and nailed with uppercuts. Wladmir was fast and athletic, but he was no slugger and didn't have the punch selection and grit of Foreman, not even remotely.

-Ike? If he can manage to make it to the later rounds, his stamina advantage might get him the win. That's a big if, and as mentioned above he has literally 1/4 the number of fights Foreman's been in, and less than half for even 70's Foreman in particular. Foreman best multiple opponents with great stamina such as Chuvalo, Norton, etc. I don't think simply having good stamina is going to be a huge deciding factor when Foreman is arguably superior in every other category except weight.

-Lewis? If he's allowed to box like his usual self, sure, but in a slugfest? I wouldn't bet a single dime on him beating Foreman outside of a freak puncher's chance. He didn't have the chin. Vitali was a volume/arm puncher and fairly inexperienced against Lewis so that doesn't give me much confidence.

 

This is definitely worth repeating. Lyle isn't the only tough slugger Foreman beat.

It's a often underrated nowadays how easily he beat Frazier. I don't think anyone in boxing history ever beat someone so dangerous, so tough, so menacing, with such a great resume in record time. Foreman displayed ridiculous power and placidity that night (another rarely discussed quality).

I think the reason it's sometimes downplayed is because people just assume almost any random slugger with above average power and size could pull off the same feat, but there's very, very few names I can think of who would be worth discussing. It's just an attempt to take credit away from Foreman. At the very least, I definitely do not see anyone having success using a bullish come forward pressuring style against Foreman.

 

He punched right "through" Jerry Quarry's head with his hook and it was incredibly sharp.

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Might’ve been but it doesn’t change the post respectfully. JF wasn’t an overly concussive puncher because he didn’t shift his weight he had to usually beat you down, it’s in his book he threw his hook off the left foot which is wrong and comes with drawbacks.

 

I find myself agreeing with Journeyman92 a lot of the time.

 

It’s because you’re one of my many alt’s but don’t tell anyone.

 

But again, listing the unique impressive circumstances of a fight, and saying there aren't any other fights that share all of those circumstances, isn't much of an argument. Because all of the guys I mentioned have unique and impressive circumstances.

I could literally make a parallel argument to the one you're making now:

"Despite all of the 'asterisks' you try to pile on, you can't show me a guy who pulled off what Brewster did. You can't show me a guy who pulled off what Lennox did." ...Etc.

But I think all of this is beside the point. The approach of "Show me a fighter who fit all of my specific criteria exactly, or else admit that my fighter is better" just isn't a very good approach in the first place.

All it does is take the focus off of Foreman's unbeatable slugfest prowess being built on one fight against another puncher his own size. Which he almost lost.

Foreman is not the only guy to win a close slugfest against another puncher. Because that's the Lyle fight when you boil it down. It's not unique. It's impressive. It took guts and power and durability. Sure. But it's not unique.

I actually agree with half of your post, and disagree with the other half.

I agree that being a puncher doesn't automatically make you a favorite against Frazier. Frazier was tough, determined, and more elusive than he seems at first. And he hit hard enough to make people think twice. I have no problem if you think Frazier beats Shavers, for example, and Shavers was a harder puncher than Foreman. Frazier would beat up Baer, too.

Where I disagree is characterizing Frazier as a puncher by the standards of a thread that's throwing around names like Shavers, Foreman, Wlad, Tua, Lewis, Tyson, etc. Candidly, I very much doubt Frazier was a puncher in even remotely the same ballpark as those guys. Frazier was a solid puncher by heavyweight standards. He could hurt you. Wouldn't be surprised if Frazier was in a similar place as Norton, Quarry, Patterson, Bonavena (to list four roughly contemporary, random guys). Or Holyfield in the modern era. But Frazier often had to rely on accumulation; he wasn't a bobbing, weaving, left-hooking Ernie Shavers.

Frazier is a good argument that you need insane durability -- and hopefully some skills -- if you're going up against Foreman with only solid power. That much I'll happily grant you. But I don't think it means Foreman wins slugfests against the kinds of punchers who are (mostly) being put forward to beat him here.