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Pre 1900 heavyweights.

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mattdonnellon, Mar 25, 2016.

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klompton2 Boxing Junkie banned Full Member

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gregluland said: ↑

Hey don't tell us any fighter ever came from Australia that was good, I have it on good authority from Klompton that Australia only ever produced bums.

Now to ignore what he says..... GREAT POST man, GREAT.
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And yet you arent obsessed with me... Until your next post directed at me...

klompton2, Mar 28, 2016

#16

reznick In the 7.2% Full Member

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It's hard to argue the depth of that era.

Anyone else feeling a resurgence happening? There are some really good heavyweights in the division right now.

reznick, Mar 28, 2016

#17

mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Mendoza said: ↑

The division back then was pretty much 165 and up. As such it had more depth than you'd think. The problem is the video, and results are severely under-reported.

My rankings for the pre 1905 era at heavyweight were thus:

1885-1905 Pioneer era: The transitional time between bare knuckles and London Prize ring rules to Queensberry rules.

1.Jeffries
2.Fitzsimmons
3A. Jackson
3B. Corbett
5. Sullivan
6. Sharkey
7. Slavin
8. Ruhlin
9. Goddard
10. Griffin
11. Maher
12. Choynski
13. Hart
14. McCoy
15. OBrien

Heavyweight action sees 1890-1889 like this:

http://www.heavyweightaction.com/Decade 1890s.html

(1) Jim Jeffries 61, 218- Jeffries came out of Ohio and came on strong during the decade and by the end had captured the title from Fitzsimmons in a 11-KO. His two draws were against Joe Choynski and Gus Ruhlin. His victories were over Joe Goddard, and over the hill Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey(2) and. Bob Armstrong. Jeffries was a former sparring partner of Jim Corbett, (11-0-2)

(2)-Bob Fitzsimmons 511, 167- Fitzsimmons was from New Zealand and was one of the most dominate fighters of the decade eventually winning the heavyweight, light heavyweight and middleweight titles. His loses were to Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Jim Jeffries. Victories during the decade were against Nonpareil Jack Dempsey, Peter Maher(2), Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Jim Corbett. His draw was against Joe Choynski. (25-3-1) 2 NC

(3)- Jim Corbett 61, 184- Corbett represented San Francisco and the west coast. He was considered a great fighter but was not real active during the decade. His wins were over Jake Kilrain, John L. Sullivan and Charley Mitchell. He lost to Fitzsimmons and Tom Sharkey on a disqualification. Probably his most memorable fight of his career was his 61 round draw and Australian, Peter Jackson.(5-2-1) 1 NC

(4) Peter Jackson 61 ½, 200- Legendary heavyweight from Australia who John L. Sullivan refused to fight because of his color. Jackson fought a 61 round draw against Jim Corbett in 1892 in San Francisco. During the decade he defeated Denver Ed Smith, Joe Butler and Frank Slavin. He fought a draw against Joe Goddard and after his health failed late in the decade he lost to Jim Jeffries and Jim Jeffords. (10-2-1)

(5) Tom Sharkey 58, 183- Sharkey was most remembered for his 1899 battle against Jeffries for the heavyweight title that he lost in a 25 round fight. His first big victory was an 8-KO over Joe Choynski in 1896. His other big wins were over Bob Fitzsimmons(questionable), Joe Goddard, Gus Ruhlin, and Disqualification win against Corbett and Kid McCoy. Both losses were to Jeffries. He fought draws against Corbett, Peter Maher and Choynski.(33-2-5) NC.

(6) Peter Maher 511 ½, 182- Maher was one of the top heavyweights of the decade and probably the most active. Maher hailed from Ireland he defeated George Godfrey, Joe Butler, Steve ODonnell(4), Frank Slavin, Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, Ed Dunkhurst(2) and Joe Kennedy. His losses were to Bob Fitzsimmons twice and Joe Goddard twice. He fought a draw against Jim Hall, Tom Sharkey and Gus Ruhlin. (101-4-2)

(7) Joe Choynski 510, 167- Choynski was another great fighter who hailed from San Francisco, and fought all the great fighters of the period. His losses were against all the top fighters of the decade, Joe Goddard(2)Tom Sharkey, Peter Maher, Gus Ruhlin and Kid McCoy. His victories were over George Godfrey, Denver Ed Smith and Goddard. He fought and unusually high number of draws probably because of gambling interest in the fight game. Draws were against Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Tom Sharkey and Kid McCoy. (38-6-6) 3 NC

(8) Gus Ruhlin 60,190 Ruhlin was one of the lesser known heavyweights of the decade but his 20-draw against Jeffries definitely gets some attention even if he on his back when the final bell rang. He came out of the state of Ohio. Victories were over Joe Goddard and Joe Choynski, his were losses were to Kid McCoy, Tom Sharkey and Joe Kennedy.(14-4-2)

(9) Kid McCoy- 511, 163- One of the top light heavyweights of the day McCoy also battled the top heavyweights. He defeated Peter Maher, Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin and Twin Sullivan. Loses include Jim Corbett(Probably a fake fight), Kid Carter and Jack Root. He fought draws against Tommy Ryan and Philadelphia Jack OBrien.(14-3-1)

(10) Jim Hall 60 ½, 167- Another small fighter from Australia who held down victories over Bob Fitzsimmons, Tommy Ryan, Joe Choynski and Frank Slavin. Hall fought two fights that were fixed against Frank Slavin and Kid McCoy. Losses were to Owen Sullivan and Dan Creedon. He fought draws against Peter Maher and Ed Dunkhurst. (30-10-3)

(11) Joe Goddard 60, 180- Another of the long line of heavyweights from Australia during the period. He defeated Mick Dooley(2), Joe Choynski, Tom Lees, Joe McAuliffe, Peter Maher, Owen Sullivan and Denver Ed Smith. His losses were to Denver Ed Smith, Harry Laing, Tom Sharkey, Jim Jeffries, Peter Maher, Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin(2), and Kid McCoy. He had draws against Peter Jackson, Tom Lees, and Bob Armstrong. He was very strong during the early part of the decade with most of his losses coming during the later part of the decade. (28-13-9)

(12) Jake Kilrain 510 ½, 195- One of the big names from the past was still competitive during the early part of the decade defeating George Godfrey. His losses included Jim Corbett, Frank Slavin, Steve ODonnell(2), and Frank Slavin. He had one draw against Steve ODonnell. (11-5-1)

(13) Steve ODonnell 60 ½, 182- In 1895 ODonnell fought for the vacated heavyweight title against Peter Maher only to lose in a 1 round knockout. The Australian had a fine record during the decade defeating Owen Sullivan, Frank Slavin and Jake Kilrain. He lost to Peter Maher(4), Gus Ruhlin, Kid McCoy and Joe Choynski. He fought draws against George Godfrey and Jake Kilrain. (20-9-4)

(14) Dan Creedon 58, 165- Creedon was another tough smaller fighter from New Zealand. He held wins over Jim Hall and loses to Bob Fitzsimmons, Kid McCoy and Joe Walcott(4). He fought a draw against Joe Choynski. (32-8-8)

(15) Frank Paddy Slavin 61 ½, 185- Another great heavyweight from down under, Slavin defeated Joe McAulifee, Jake Kilrain and Joe Butler. He lost to Peter Jackson and Jim Hall in a fake fight, Bob Armstrong(2), Peter Maher, Steve ODonnell, Joe Butler, Jim Hall and Tommy Lees.(12-8-2)

(16) George Godfrey 510 ½, 175- Canadian Godfrey entered the decade well past his prime and 37 years old. He had wins over Patsy Cardiff and Denver Ed Smith. His losses were against Jake Kilrain, Joe Choynski and Peter Maher. He had two draws against Steve ODonnell and Joe Butler.(5-3-3)

(17) Frank Childs 59 ½, 173- Nicknamed the crafty Texan, Childs defeated Bob Armstrong(3), Joe Butler, Ed Dunkhorst and Mexican Pete Everett. He lost very seldom. Two of his loses were against Dan Creedon and Joe Choynski. (26-4-4)

(18) Joe Butler 60 ½, - A middleweight from Philadelphia, Armstrong had a fine career defeating Bob Armstrong, Frank Slavin and Ed Dunkhurst. He lost to Peter Maher, Frank Slavin, and Bob Armstrong. He had a draw against George Godfrey. (31-11-3)

(19) Ed Dunkhurst 63, 230- A big heavyweight from Syracuse, New York. He had many losses to his credit losing to Gus Ruhlin, Peter Maher(2), Joe Choynski, Frank Childs and Joe Butler. He fought draws against Jim Hall and Bob Armstrong. He also had a win over Bob Armstrong.(13-8-5)

(20) Bob Armstrong 63, 187- Armstrong was very competitive beating Frank Slavin(2), Joe Butler, Mexican Pete Everett, and Jim Jeffords. He lost to Joe Butler, Jim Jeffries, Mexican Pete Everett, Frank Childs(2) and Ed Dunkhorst. Armstrong fought draws against Joe Choynski, Ed Dunkhorst and Joe Goddard. (12-8-6)
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good post. Disagree about the rating of Hank Griffin, he was nothing special, but the rest is reasonable. McCoy, I'd have higher and for sure Denver Ed Martin should be in there. Also another "Denver Ed", Smith this time, should be in any top twenty from the 1890's.

mattdonnellon, Mar 29, 2016

#18
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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McCoy was a middleweight, not a light heavyweight. Why mention the draws with Ryan and not the win over the same? He also had the better of the bout with Choynski that was a pre-arranged draw.
Steve O'Donnell was one of the most skilled and talented heavyweights of the decade, but he was too weak mentally to be a fighter.
Jim Hall held a win over Tommy Ryan?

Senya13, Mar 29, 2016

#19

gregluland Boxing Addict Full Member

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klompton2 said: ↑

And yet you arent obsessed with me... Until your next post directed at me...
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Just quoting your authoritative knowledge as the greatest most perfect boxing ****yst to have ever lived.

go smoke some :rasta:rasta:rasta:rasta

gregluland, Mar 29, 2016

#20
Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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Senya13 said: ↑

McCoy was a middleweight, not a light heavyweight. Why mention the draws with Ryan and not the win over the same? He also had the better of the bout with Choynski that was a pre-arranged draw.
Steve O'Donnell was one of the most skilled and talented heavyweights of the decade, but he was too weak mentally to be a fighter.
Jim Hall held a win over Tommy Ryan?
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There really was not a light heavyweight division pre 1900.

McCoy was about 5'11 1/2 with a 76 in reach. A puncher type with mobility and skills he beat much heavier men. His best weight was above 160.

Mendoza, Mar 29, 2016

#21
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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I don't think McCoy's best weight was above 160. He was described as fat at 165 pounds vs Jim Stewart in 1908. He made 158 pounds for O'Brien in 1904. I think 156-158 pounds was about right for him.

Senya13, Mar 29, 2016

#22

mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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I think it is fair to say that from the Ruhlin fight in 1898 to the Corbett fiasco in 1900, McCoy was a serious player in the heavyweight division.

mattdonnellon, Mar 29, 2016

#23
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Too bad McCoy and Fitz never met in a real fight, some time in 1898 or 1899. Now, if Fitz lands clean and flush, he wins by KO, obviously, but that's far from certain that he could land such punch if the Kid were in top shape.The reverse result is also a possibility, it's not like Fitz was unknockoutable.

Senya13, Mar 30, 2016

#24
mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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McCoy was a bit chinny though....be a great fight, the Kid is criminally underrated.

mattdonnellon, Mar 30, 2016

#25
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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He usually got tagged when he came into the fight careless. He wouldn't be against Fitz. He's the more skillful and clever of the two (both in offense and defense), faster reflexes and hands, quicker feet, and he learned Fitz' short-distance punching technique to perfection. They were both very tricky, probably the Kid has advantage even in this department (despite him being very humble in his reminiscences about Fitz). So that Fitz' only chance is to land the KO, and he has a good chance to do that, but I'd probably have bet on the Kid to outpoint Bob.

Senya13, Mar 30, 2016

#26

mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Senya13 said: ↑

He usually got tagged when he came into the fight careless. He wouldn't be against Fitz. He's the more skillful and clever of the two (both in offense and defense), faster reflexes and hands, quicker feet, and he learned Fitz' short-distance punching technique to perfection. They were both very tricky, probably the Kid has advantage even in this department (despite him being very humble in his reminiscences about Fitz). So that Fitz' only chance is to land the KO, and he has a good chance to do that, but I'd probably have bet on the Kid to outpoint Bob.
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That's a very interesting opinion. I would have thought that if Maher could get him on ***** street, then Fitz would surely trap him? But I wouldn't be bullish about it either.

mattdonnellon, Mar 30, 2016

#27
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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I don't know what you talking about. Maher had slightly the better of the fourth round of the fight, but most reporters didn't think McCoy was in any trouble, even less so on ***** street.

Senya13, Mar 30, 2016

#28
Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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Senya13 said: ↑

Too bad McCoy and Fitz never met in a real fight, some time in 1898 or 1899. Now, if Fitz lands clean and flush, he wins by KO, obviously, but that's far from certain that he could land such punch if the Kid were in top shape.The reverse result is also a possibility, it's not like Fitz was unknockoutable.
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Fitz had a tremendous ability to recuperate from a blow.

From February 1890 to December 1905, a near 14 year period, Fitz had 49 recorded fights. Only Jeffries knocked him out and his resume of who he meet was stacked with punches.

Some feel the fight he lost ( Hall ) in 1890 was fixed, so it's possible he went 18 years with only on man stopping him. That is impressive.

Mendoza, Mar 30, 2016

#29
Senya13 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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That's not the reason why I think the fight would be won by McCoy on points. I have no doubt the Kid could KO Fitz (but the reverse result has higher probability, Fitz by KO), but we'd probably see the usual more cautious version of McCoy in such bout, and him winning on points.

Senya13, Mar 30, 2016

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