Who would Usyk have to beat to be a top 1-5 HW Of All Time?

Agreed

 

He'll never be top 5. Arguably his best wins might be against Fury, who struggled to beat an old injured and inactive 0-0 boxing record fighter from MMA in his 'tune up'. I'm not making that up. This is where we're at.

 

Hmmm, I do discredit his cruiserweight exploite though. If we are gonna include non-HW exploits that then Charles is the GOAT and Archie climbs up an entire level or two of HW strata.

Charles - the greatest LHW, sparkling résumé across his career, beat the best or second best HW fighter and greatest champion of any weight, at a time when there was only one world champion and has a number of title defences and lost to the only undefeated HW champ to ply his whole career as a HW. However, Ezz isn't top 5 at HW or anywhere close and his record as a professional obliterates anything that Usyk has achieved IMO.

I get the logic but unfortunately, the rules or average weights of today's cruiser against the HWs of the 40 - 80's isn't going to make me retrospectively readjust rankings or reanalyse cruiserweight fights arbitrarily. Not saying that you've done this - you are a commendable and well-respected poster - but on this I will stay consistent in that whilst Floyd may demonstrate the greatest combination of talent and boxing skills on film, he pales in comparison to the SRRs, Grebs, Langford's, Armstrong's, Ezz, Pep, Duran etc.

It may not be fair but in an all time ranking of greatness those that have competed at the HW division of their era exclusively and achieved supreme greatness of their era deserve to be ranked higher than those that came after them with lesser HW accomplishments. Usyk's non-HW exploits and the reality of today's sharp practice around weigh in lends great credibility to his H2H prowess and even then, I'd temper it and suggest there is not one great fighter on his HW ledger - not a single one.

 

Archie has one of the best HW records all time. So does Charles for that matter.

I’m not talking about 175 pounder in the LHW this is referring to modern cruisers who for the most part dominated the hw division since its founding. And imo still would rule like Usyk is ruling. If you don’t count it I get it and that’s cool. Just my opinion which means nothing

 

Your opinion is valued, considered and not without merit - I genuinely get it and can logically agree - unfortunately, if I apply it here, then there's too many precedents of rationale and judgment that I have to unwind - it just becomes 'messy', for me at least, and I am only me.

The problem with the cruiserweight situation and rationalisation for me is that this then becomes a scenario where HW size and weight is somewhat artificially inflated by things such as decrease to 12 round fights, steroid abuse, general weight abuse and overeating, unnatural modified food readily available.

Here's another thought - if Usyk counts cos he was a cruiserweight and they weighed the same or even more than many prior champions, then we have arguably never truly had HW champions until we get to the late 1980s/1990s.

Realistically, the HW division has no upper limit - once a man is over the LHW limit, he is a HW according to over a hundred years of historical precedent. Personally, I'd rather a return to 15 round championship fights with same day weigh ins - force the fighters to be in better shape and then you don't have to create random weight classes or try to extrapolate backwards as they play the game from a somewhat even keel.

However, once they arbitrarily make the decisions to discriminate weight classes above LHW and you knowingly compete as a cruiser as opposed to as a HW, I struggle to include your cruiser accomplishments in your HW legacy, even if 50/60 years ago, you would have been a good sized HW all the same.

 

I think a lot of people would be surprised that several top 10 heavyweights only have 10 or so meaningful wins.

So with another 2 wins, retiring undefeated, his clear superiority in this era and H2H ability, you could make a case for the top 5.

 

Usyk is already there. Nobody has fought the excellent competition (skilled, bigger, younger), fight after fight that Usyk has fought and beaten. He should retire now. There is nothing left to prove. His amateur career and the excellent competition he defeated in the World Series of Boxing along with his pro career should satisfy any nonpartisan historian who rates off of resume'. For me, I value video much more than resume' and if Usyk lost his next 5 fights, I'd still rate him as one of the best ever h2h off what he has already shown. I've never seen a HW that I would bet on against Usyk.

 

He's not top 5, but there are quite a few classic boxers Usyk could be ranked over now. Patterson, Dempsey, Liston, Vitali for sure in my opinion. You could argue he's over Wlad, Mike Tyson, and Frazier as well, but there are also counterpoints to those.

 

The really great hws prob only have five top wins the ATG closer to 10. Usyk has four great wins and a few ok ones.

 

Bowe's is razor thin. Holmes' is pretty light for a guy who who some rank as high as #2 or #3 of all times.

USYK
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/usyks-top-ten-wins-as-of-7-19-25.739181/
Fury 1 3
Briedis 3
Joshua 1 3
Gassiev 3
Fury II 3
Joshua II 3
Dubois II 3
Bellew 3
Dubois 1 2
Chisora 2
Glowacki 1
Hunter 1

WLADKLIT
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/wladimir-klitschko-top-ten-wins.730677/
Byrd I 6
Haye 6
Chambers 6
McCline 5
Chagaev 5
Ibragimov 5
Thompson I 5
Peter I 5
Povetkin 5
Byrd II 4
Brewster 2
Pulev 3
Peter II 1
Jennings 1
Brock 1

LEWIS
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/lennox-lewis-top-ten-wins-name-em.732855/
Evander Holyfield2 11
David Tua 11
Hassem Rahman 11
Razor Ruddcok 11
Vitali Kiltschko 10
Frank Bruno 9
Tony Tucker 7
Michael Grant 6
Tommy Morrison 6
Ray Mercer 6
Andrew Golota 9
Mike Tyson 5
Holyfield 1 4
Briggs 1
Botha 1

BOWE
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/evander-holyfield-top-ten-name-em.733820/
Riddick Bowe II 11
Tyson I 11
Foreman 11
Moorer II 11
Holmes 11
Douglas 10
Mercer 8
Dokes 7
Qawi 1 6
Tyson II 6
Rahmen 5
Ruiz I 3
Qawi 2 3
Cooper 2
DeLeon 2
Thomas 2

TYSON
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/iron-mike-tyson-top-ten-wins-name-em.732337/
Trevor Berbick 15
Michael Spinks 15
Larry Holmes 14
Tony Tucker 14
Razor Ruddock I 12
Carl Williams 11
Pinklon Thomas 11
Bonecrusher Smith 9
Tyrell Biggs 9
Razor Ruddock II 8
Tony Tubbs 7
Frank Bruno I 7
Bruno II 4Marvis Frazier 3
Alex Stewart 3
Ribalta 2
Seldon 2
Quick Tillis 1
Buster Douglas 1
Golata 1

HOLYFIELD
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/riddick-bowe-top-ten-wins.732600/
Holyfield 1 10
Herbie Hide 10
Tony Tubbs 10
Jorge Luis Gonzales 9
Holyfield III 9
Michael Dokes 8
Jesse Ferguson 8
Larry Donald 7
Bruce Seldon 7
Biggs 6
Cooper 5
Andrew Golota I 3
Andrew Golata II 3
Thomas 3
Coetzer 1

HOLMES
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/name-holmes-ten-best-wins.719448/
Norton-5
Witherspoon-5
Shavers 2-5
Cooney -5
Berbick-5
Leon Spinks-5
Bonecrusher-4
Mercer-4
Shavers 1-4
Weaver-4
Ali-1
Williams-1
Bey-1
Cobb-1

SPINKS
michael-spinks-top-ten-wins.729753
Holmes I 3
Eddie Musafa Muhammed 3
Dwight Muhammed Qawi 3
Marvin Johnson 3
Gerry Cooney 3
Yanqui Lopez 3
Murray Sutherland II 2
Mustapha Wasajja 2
Holmes II 1
Johnny Davis 1
Stephan Taangstaad 1
Vonzell Johnson 1
Eddie Davis 1

ALI
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/muhammad-ali-top-ten-victories-name-em.732074/
George Foreman 11
Sonny Liston I 11
Joe Frazier II 11
Ken Norton II 10
Joe Frazier III 10
Ernie Terrell 9
Floyd Patterson 1 8
Sonny Liston II 7
Ron Lyle 7
Jerry Quarry I 6
Zora Folley 5
Jimmy Ellis 4
Quary II 3
Floyd Patterson II 1
Cleveland Williams 1
Jimmy Young 2
Ernie Shavers 2
Bugner 1 1
Norton III 1

FRAZIER
joe-frazier-top-ten.732000
Ali 6
Ellis 1 6
Quarry 1 6
Bonavena 2 6
Quarry 2 6
Bonavena 1 6
Chuvalo 6
Bugner 6
Mathis 6
Machen 4
Bob Foster 2

FOREMAN
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...re-george-foremans-top-ten-wins.728980/page-3
Joe Frazier 1-12
Ken Norton-12
Michael Moorer-12
Ron Lyle-12
George Chavulo-12
Joe Frazier II-10
Gerry Cooney-9
Bert Cooper-9
Alex Stewart-6
Dwight Qawi-5
Gregorio Peralta 1- 5
Gregorio Peralta II- 4
Chuck Wepner-3
Shannon Briggs*- 3
Lou Savarese-2
Adilson Rodriguez-2
Jose Roman-1
John Dino Denis-1

LISTON
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/sonny-listons-top-ten-wins.731765/
Patterson 1 3
Patterson 2 3
Folley 3
Machen 3
Williams 1 3
Williams 2 3
Valdez 3
Harris 3
Clark 2
DeJohn 2
Chuck Wepner 1
Amos Lincoln 1

MARCIANO
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/rocky-marciano-top-ten-wins-name-em.736403/
Walcott 1 4
Moore 4
Charles II 4
La Starza II 4
Louis 4
Rex Layne 4
Charles 1 3
Walcott II 3
Matthews 3
Cockell 3
Savold 2
La Starza 1
Reynolds 1

LOUIS
https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/joe-louis-top-ten-wins-name-em.734964/
Max Baer 11
Max Schmeling 11
Billy Conn I 10
Primo Carnera 9
Joe Walcott II 9
Buddy Baer II 9
Jim Braddock 8
Lou Nova 7
Bob Pastor II 6
John Henry Lewis 6
Arturo Godoy II 4
Tommy Farr 3
Jimmy Bivins 3
Jack Sharkey 2
Nathan Mann 2
Abe Simon II 2
Paola Uzcudchin 1
Bob Pastor II 2
Joe Walcott I 1
Buddy Baer 1 1
Lee Savold 1

 

I think with Holmes it's down to his consistency and the fact he never lost in his prime. He had 20 world title fights in 7 years and was fighting multiple ranked contenders every year.

Yeah Holmes did have a few easy touches here and there but wouldn't you love a Heavyweight champion now that was having 2 or 3 title fights a year ? And consistently fighting top 10 ranked fighters ?

I think that's my issue with modern era of Heavyweights someone like Fury for example since he won the title in 2015 only beat 2 ranked opponents. He wasn't fighting often enough against ranked opposition so we don't actually know what his true H2H ability is IMO.

 

I'd have to believe Usyk still has a few years left in his prime. That he'll be as good as he is now for another two, maybe three years. It's possible, but unlikely. He'd also need a bit of luck. He'd have to win in style against, say, Parker, Kabayel, Itauma, maybe someone like Zalolov or Anderson, and not ruin at least one of them's career. For example, if Usyk beats Itauma cleanly and it later turns out to be a true ATG, it will push Usyk up the ranks. If someone later considers Itauma as No. 5, it's hard to put Olek lower.

Paradoxically, being even better than he is and ruining careers might historically be rated lower, just like not everyone appreciates the achievements of Mike Tyson or Joe Louis. They simply ruined a lot of great careers. Good timing also matters because historically, if Usyk beats Wilder today, it will be rated higher in years to come than, for example, beating Kabayel, which would be much more impressive in reality.

 

Unfortunately for Usyk, there is noone remaining to cement his HW greatness. If he could beat Parker, Kabayel, Itauma, Zhang, Wilder, then people might say he is decent. TBH, there are arguments that he is a lot higher than what is being discussed. Unlike every fighter for the past 40 years, he has not ducked anyone. Lennox was going to be destroyed in the Vitali rematch. Floyd was going to ve destroyed by several hungry contenders, including Pacman. Holyfield had obvious limitations and did not do what Usyk has done. Moving back we have Holmes, who i agree should be ranked higher at HW than Usyk, but p4p? Are we just forgetting that Usyk won Olympic gold, came late to the pro ranks, fought a murderer's row at CW, then beat everyone worthy at HW twice?

Sure, Usyk's competition cannot compare to eras of the past, but he has a mark of 100% for his achievements based on what is put in front of him, unlike any boxer in history. Ali and Holmes had losses. SRR ducked the murderer's row including Burley. Iron Mike Tyson smashed but was undone when facing adversity.

 

This is something I have challanged very hard on, and mentioned Liston quite specifically...

USYK'S BEST OPPONENTS
Glowacki- 6'0", 199, WBO Cruiser Champ
Mchunu- 5'11", 198.5, #12 WBO, #14 IBF
Hunter- 6'2", 199.25, #9 WBO Cruiser
Huck- 6'2", 198, #9 WBO, former champ
Briedis- 6'1", 199, WBC Cruiser Champ
Gassiev- 6'3.5", 198, IBF/WBA Cruiser Champ
Bellew- 6'3", 199, #1 WBO, , #4 WBA cruiser, former champ
Chisora- 6'1.5", 255.5, #8 WBO, #10 IBF, #11 WBA, all at heavyweight
Joshua- 6'6", 240 IBF/WBA/WBO Heavyweight Champ
Joshua- 6'6, 244.5, #4 WBO, #4 IBF #4WBA, Former Champion
Dubois- 6'5", 233, #8 WBO Heavweight (and mando somehow)
Fury-- 6'9", 262, WBC Heavyweight Champ
Fury- 6'9", 281, WBC #1, WBO #1, WBA #3,
Dubois- 6'5", 243, IBF Champion

LISTON'S BEST
Patterson- 6'0", 189, World Champion
Patterson- 6'0", 194, #1 NBA contender
Foley- 6'1",198.5, #3 NBA contender, #1 Ring Magazine
Williams- 6'2", 215.5 Unranked
Willlams- 6'2", 210, # NBA 10 contender
Machen- 6'0", 196, #2 NBA Contender, #3 Ranked Ring Magazine
Valdez- 6'3", 211, #2 Ring Magazine
Summerline 6'1", 201, Unranked
Summerline 6'1", 206, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 18, Unranked
Marshall, 6'0.5", 179, "Honorable Mention" at LHW
Wepner, 6'5", 228, Unranked
Clark, 6'3", 215, #5 NBA contender
Rischer, not listed, 200, Unranked
Bethea, 6'0", 204, #8 Ring magazine
Westphal, 5'7.5", 195, Unranked
Besmanoff, 5'11", 201, Unranked
Harris, 6'0", 195, #6 NBA, #7 Ring Magazine
Dejohn, 6'2.5", 202, #9 ranked NBA, #8 Ranked Ring Magazine