ATG HW: No.1 Ali ; No.2 Louis ; No.3 Usyk ; Can it be like this?

Any Heavyweight boxer competing at a high level in the 70's, 80's and 90's was literally like walking out into an unmarked mine field. For me, Ali's level of competition is unmatched. Foreman having a very successful second career after a 10 year lay off will also likely never be repeated. Holmes was one fight away from matching Marciano's 49-0 record and many feel was robbed of that accolade. Lewis beat every man he ever faced, including several consensus top 10 ATG's and Louis title reign is unmatched. Evander Holyfield's resume is crazy good and he has a similar standing at CW, the Bowe trilogy alone is highly praise worthy against a peak H2H monster.

I also feel that Frazier gets overlooked, particularly given he was the first man to defeat Ali when both were arguably a little past their best for various reasons. Vladimir Klitschko's title reign shouldn't be sniffed at either. Marciano undefeated and, his resume has some serious names on there, regardless of when he fought them: Ezzard Charles x2, Walcott x2, Archie Moore, two of those names arguably the best LHW's ever in an era of small HW's. Usyk just doesn't have the required opposition or the longevity and that ain't his fault as he certainly has the skill and the minerals.

 

You can only fight who's in your era. Anyone who thinks Usyk is no 3 all time HW is out of their mind

 

1-Tyson ( prime 1986-1989 )
2-George Foreman
3- Larry Holmes/ Rocky Marciano

 

Can someone please ,just PLEASE explain to me,what Usyk has done to regard him as this top 3 all time great at Heavyweight? What exactly has he done and who has he beat?

there are 3 names:
Anthony Joshua
Tyson Fury
Daniel Dubois.

Anthony Joshua is a fighter that has a weak chin that lost to a fighter who had no business beating him. He nearly got knocked out by Wlad who should have been in a nursing home. He got knocked out by Dubois who was going backwards.

Tyson Fury was shot after Wilder,you don't get knocked down 4 times by a 212-230 pounder and it had no effect. Add that all of the drugs he was doing being a coke head and what exactly did Usyk beat? He nearly lost to this guy.

Dubois is a decent fighter ,but he has a lack of heart (But he is smart for not getting up after gassing).

Mike Tyson has a better resume than Usyk does. He had a longer title reign than Usyk had. He unified the title individually not taking half the belts from someone.and this is coming from someone who thinks Mike is overrated.

Usyk is dominating the weakest era in heavyweight history fighting a bunch of damaged goods.

People give Tyson **** for knocking out Larry Holmes. Holmes who would go on to have a decent career after this and who's previous record was 48-2, only losing to ATG Light-weight michael spinks only being knocked out by Tyson.

 

"he could've turned up drunk and out of shape"

What's your best example of a boxer turning up drunk and winning with ease, or winning at all?

"it was arguably the worst heavyweight title fight of all time."

Absurd, biased exaggeration. Many of Wlad's championship fights were worse, even far worse and less watchable.

Fury-Wlad is a unique win in boxing history: no one had ever won a fight over 12 rounds with so few punches taken, let alone at that level.

"he actually looked like he was in cruise control against Usyk for six rounds"

He didn't. He had three good rounds in a row, prior to that Usyk had either won the first three or at least two of them. The only reason Fury may have been in a clear lead after 7 rounds was his A-side advantage, which many of the old greats never had to overcome even once in their careers.

"he's had 8 fights at heavyweight"

Many of Ali's and especially Louis's HW fights would be CW fights today. Quality matters more than quantity. Wilder's first 32 wins for instance count for less than Usyk's win over Chisora, or Hunter/Briedis in a HW ability sense. You claim that Ibeabuchi's best two wins at heavyweight count for more than Usyk's best seven, which to me is utterly absurd. But implicitly you also validate the claim of quality over quantity.

"he would not have beaten the top-tier ATGs at HW."

Far less able titlist level southpaws like Byrd, Moorer and Sanders beat the only greats who fought them: Holyfield and K2. I don't think the old greats who never fought any of them, or any better than say Mildenberger, would have a serious chance against Usyk.

I don't think Joe Louis would beat Dubois or Joshua. Tony Galento was a contender in those days ffs. They'd most likely knock his head off because sport doesn't remain static.

 

1. Usyk
2. Lewis
3. Ali
4. Holmes
5. Wlad
6. Holyfield
7. Foreman
8. Tyson
9. Frazier
10. Vitali

 

I can't wait to see your top 10 list after the next era lol

 

And he beat a couple of good Cruisers. That's about it.

 

I am not sitting here arguing his Cruiser run. And you can hate me for it. But to me, that is one of the most irrelevant divisions to me. I do not care about that divsion. Light Heavyweight on the otherhand.

 

not trying to argue anything.

 

It was hyperbolic to show that Fury, the "lineal" champion, should have had no problems against Ngannou, regardless. Just like Joshua never. That's how any top 50 HW should've beaten Ngannou, not go life and death with him for half an hour. The idea that somebody who struggles with a cage fighter on his debut that badly is any sort of benchmark for the HW division is laughable to me. Would George Foreman or Larry Holmes get dropped by a kickboxer in their prime? It was pathetic, and it sends Fury's ATG ranking through the floor, and it devalues Usyk's win against him enormously, in my opinion.

Ibeabuchi has 2 A-grade names on his resume at HW; Usyk has 2 A-grade names on his resume, that's all I meant. Three of Usyk's seven wins are in rematches against fighters he already beat. Dubois is not one of those names. Joe Joyce outboxed him for 10 rounds, he lost every round to Usyk in both fights, and then walked chin-first into a haymaker because he has no ring IQ at the elite level. Joe Louis would've been kryptonite for both Dubois and Joshua, and he would've knocked them both out early within a few rounds. Usyk would do a lot better against him, but I still wouldn't back him to win.

Ali beat Foreman when he was the most feared HW of all time, probably more fearsome than Tyson in '88. A 6-foot-5 knockout machine with an iron jaw, and Ali outmanned and outgunned him; he always found a way to win, and I know Usyk does too, but that crop of '70s fighters were built differently, 15-round gladiators who were willing to leave it all in the ring. Ali would've found a way to beat Usyk, but that's not to say Usyk would've looked out of his depth.

 

We don't know exactly how good/dangerous Ngannou is, he's had two pro boxing matches. But far inerior MMA punchers to Ngannou (Hardy, Hunt, Tuivasa) have beaten journeyman boxers. Lucas Browne was on the cusp of 30 when he had his first boxing match and he KO'd old Chagaev late, Fa in 1. Ngannou is better than "top 50", what Joshua did wouldn't be replicated by many.

Fury is not a normal person or even a normal boxer, mentally. He's susceptible to extremely high highs and low lows: Joey Abell Fury, overlooking a journeyman and fat as a pig, wouldn't have schooled Wlad. He'd have most likely got KO'd. No one in boxing history to my knowledge has come back from Fury's level of problems with weight. So it's ridiculous to judge his peak level by how he performs on his worst day, of which he has had more than most.

You claimed that Ike's 2-0 over Byrd and Tua was better than Usyk's 7-0 over Fury x2, Joshua x2, Dubois x2 and Chisora, as a clear B-side in 4 of those to boot. Rematch wins prove you can run the gauntlet multiple times, which shows a lot against high level opponents, particularly big KO threats. Losing a rematch is not uncommon, either due to their adjustments or just being hit with a big shot. It's doubtful that any other fighter in HW history would have been favoured to follow Usyk's path and come out the other side undefeated. Holyfield for instance, as great as he was, had five losses (including to Moorer and Ruiz) at Usyk's age, two draws and wasn't a B-side fighter as Usyk has frequently been.

Joe Louis fought no one with the size, power and athleticism of top HW's 70 or 90 years in the future. Even Andy Ruiz is a turbo version of Tony Galento. No big man in those days had the skill that these SHW's do. So it makes sense that he'd be smashed to pieces by them. Louis said "I want nothing to do with no southpaws" and ducked a LHW Italian. MW mover Billy Conn was about to beat him but traded instead and got KO'd. We should not be overly influenced by the American media hype machine.

Foreman was 6'3, maybe marginally taller than Usyk. Nowhere is he billed as 6'5. This is another example of hyping the old fighters beyond what the facts allow. 70's "Big George" is almost identical to "middleweight" Usyk in height, weight and reach. Young Foreman had low ring IQ and a dodgy gas tank. He was slower and less co-ordinated than Usyk and not a southpaw, which Ali had big problems against. Ali found a way to win that night but got the stuffing beaten out of him by Frazier and Norton, so it only worked against certain styles. If you had to bet your life on a fight, would you pick 66' Ali over say 2018/2021 Usyk?

 

Holmes didn't fight everyone in his era.

As for Usyk, he doesn't need to be #3 heavy, because he is a PfP fist tier ATG- who just happens to be 6'3" and beats Super heavyweights. As you like.

 

Even Fury at his best, his best win is against Wlad, who was on the decline in an absolutely woeful fight. I'm not saying he wasn't a good boxer; obviously, he was. However, he's nowhere near good enough to be used as a factor if we're talking about Usyk having an ATG HW resume.

I think Holyfield would've beaten Usyk at cruiserweight, and his wins against Tyson and Bowe are miles ahead of beating over-protected Brits like Joshua, Dubois, and, to a lesser extent, Fury. Hoyfield has a giant asterisk over his name because of his steroid use, though. Breidis had serious success against Usyk, and Holyfield was a much more skilled CW than Breidis.

I mean, when we talk about Louis, we're talking about his KO record against other top contenders at the time. If we're talking about the evolution of fighters, then that's a different story. Foreman was an enormous heavyweight for his time, even when he returned in the 1990s. He did not have that low of a ring IQ. He obliterated Frazier and Norton within a few rounds and won an Olympic gold medal; you don't do that without some semblance of ring IQ.

Yes, I would bet the house on Ali over Usyk. Usyk is being heavily overrated because he beat a conveyor belt of overrated British cannon fodder repeatedly. Ali was not invincible, but he was as close as we will ever see at HW, especially when he was on his A-game. I don't think Usyk beats Foreman from 1974, never mind the Ali who knocked him out. There's no shame in that. We're talking about the top of the mountain here, the GOATs, and while Usyk is very good, he's just outside of this bracket for me, somewhere between the top 10-15, but it's a toss-up between him and Holyfield for the greatest CW of all time.

 

In your opinion. Not mine