1904 James J. Jeffries vs 1882 John L. Sullivan

Jefffries had hot air treatment on his arm from Dr Henry Frauenthal and Jeffries announced it was ,"a great deal better ," from October the 20th he was back to his usual training routine of bag punching and wrestling.On Oct 24th Jeffries sparred 6 rds with Tommy Ryan ,and the arm," was as good as it ever was.""Jeffries punched often and hard with it ,and did not spare it at the finish." Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

 

In other words he wasn't quite right, but he took the fight anyway.

 

Those watching him spar thought he was as good as ever .
Q.Why would he be wrestling if his arm was still injured?
Q.As champion he could have postponed the fight if he felt he could not do himself justice.Why didnt he?
I'm bailing now anyway I've no wish to go around the houses with you for several hours,only to arrive back at the same spot!
You have a ready made excuse for everything concerning Jeffries.
Corbett had less fights than him."We don't have his complete record ".
So we have Jeffries full record but not those of his opponents who may very well have had loads more fights and experience,whilst poor Jeff was a novice.blah ,blah, blah.
The reason he gave Corbett the rematch ,[which he emphaticaly did not merit ,]"was because of Corbett's fine showing in their 1 st fight ."
Pity it took him over 3 years to get around to it!
According to you the reason Jeffries took 2 years to rematch the now nearly40 years old Fitz ,[who had ko'd both leading contenders in the space of 2 weeks], was because ,"Fitz didn't want the fight, "although after koin'g Sharkey he reached over the top rope and shouted to Jeffries ,"you'll give me a fight now won't you Jeff ,lets shake on it and Jeffries reluctantly stood up and did so ?" Fitz announced to the press next day that he would be ready to challenge Jeffries," anytime in the next 6 months".Two years later he finally got his chance.
Excuses, excuses,excuses.
J you are full of it!

 

Yes, but by the same logic, he might have smashed everybody in that era except Jeffries.

 

Given what we know about the medical history of the arm after the fight, it is fairly safe to say that it was not right going into the fight, even if Jeffries thought that it was.

 

What sometimes get's lost in translation, is that Fitz didn't need the title after he defeated Ruhlin and Sharkey.

He became a huge draw in his own right.

 

He not fight the best, no matches with Peter Jackson, Joe Goddard or Peter Maher. No fights with Pat Killen either. Any of these names would be the best on his resume. No Frank Slavin either. I recognize Cardiff on his resume and he lost that fight called a draw. To add more some of his opponents were past their prime or in bad walk around shape leading up to their match. Who did he fight, who?.

Quarry actually fought talented contenders! Sullivan did not, unless you consider Charlie Mitchell at 160 pounds to be a talented heavyweight. Do you?

Suillvan did not dominate for years either that statement is misleading from 1884-1892 he certainly didn't dominate. Sorry, you will have to show me sir.

 

Fitz announced he was ready to challenge Jeffries for the title directly after the Sharkey fight that' s a helluva funny way to retire!
"I stand ready to meet Jeffries before September the1st but he doesn't seem to want any of my game."
"He whipped me once,but I don't think he will do it again.When we met I had not fought in a couple of years,and naturally I was not in the best of condition,But I am in great form now,and really think ,if we were to meet again soon I would come out on top.
In fact I held Jeffries too cheap but I learned a lesson and will not be caught napping the next time.If they give me enough money,I guess I will be ready to face Jeffries some time inside the next six months".

 

So Fitz didnt want to challenge for the title ?Though he, publicly in the ring asked for a title shot, challenged Jeffries numerous times and even posted a bond to do so!
No ,crafty Fitz waited until he was nearly 40 years old to fight Jeffries,how clever of him!
If Fitz's concern was for the cash and not the glory ,why didn't he cash in on his two wins over Ruhlin and Sharkey?Why wait 2 years for his opportunity to face Jeffries,fighting no one in between
Did Ali need the title after he lost to Frazier? He was making more money per fight than Frazier was for his 2 title defences! So why did he pursue Foreman for a title shot?
You've gone round and round ,grasping at straws like a man in a whirlpool!
No logic whatsoever to your feeble arguments.
Excuses, excuses ,excuses! Its a mantra!

 

These men were not the best contenders of his era, they were the best contenders of the next era.

There was minimal meaningful overlap between his career and theirs.

It wouldn't make much difference to his standing in my eyes, if Peter Jackson had beaten up on his decrepit alcoholic corpse, in place of Jim Corbett.

It is very reliably documented that Sullivan broke his arm in the Cardiff fight, and still he held Cardiff to a draw.

First we need to understand the timeline.

Sullivan starts fighting the top me of the era in 1881, wins the title in 1882, and announces his retirement in 1889.

He is eventually tempted out of retirement, by the offer of an all time record pay day, but he his basically an inactive fighter after the Killrain fight.

So his period of activity is essentially 1881 to 1889.

Now if the men that he was fighting during that period were not he best available, then it is hard to see who was.

Say what you like about the era, but Ryan, Ellis, Mitchell, Wilson, Greenfield, Burke, McCaffrey, Herald, Cardiff and Killrain, were seen as being the best around.

They were also seen as being the men who had the best chance of beating him.

 

THIS is a good post!

 

Jeffries has to fight Corbett, Sharkey and Ruhlin before fighting Fitz agin.
( Griffin and Kenndey too ) from late 1899-1901, these days forever to meet top contenders if they actually fight. Imo this timeline and the fact that he had other significant fights was decent, it's not like he sat on his belt! Maybe he could have had Fitz in late 1901 but he did re-match him in 1902. Fitz himself said he was retired after their first fight and was a difficult man to negotiate with. I suggest reading Adam Pollack book on Jeffries if you want to get familiar with his career. It's good. You'll see, Jeffries was a busy man compared to all others, actually fighting top contenders for his belt. His predecessors up to Joe Louis were not as active. Who did Sullivan, Corbett. Hart Burns, Johnson, Demspest and Tunney fight, not the top contenders, Maybe just once. If you add Fitz to his schedule he fight at least three top two guys an solid contender in Ruhiln along with some others in a 3 year span. By any definition he was a busy man.

 

Sullivan probably fought the best contenders from 1882 to 1889 but while good fighters, the best of them were around the middleweight limit, Mitchell, McCaffrey and Burke the standouts. Greenwood was decent too but also small. Godfrey was black and solid but I don't think Sullivan intentionally avoided him. Kilrain was the obvious decent fighter that he didn't meet with gloves but he bested him with the raw ones. Cardiff, Killen, and McAullife came along around 1886-88, he drew with Cardiff, and never got to fight the other two, injuries, Drink and bare-knuckle defences saw to that. There was no great clamour for these fights anyway.

By 1889, John L was finished, Slavin had only boxed a draw with Burke in 1888, Maher was a crude amateur, and Goddard didn't even have a fight until 1889. Jackson was the closest, arriving in America in late 1888. To summarise I think Sulliven fought the best up to 1889 but they were very undersized, not Sullivans fault but still a fact. The other later contenders were after Sullivan effectively retired. Absolutely no doubt that Jeffries fought better contenders, even his pre-title run was better than anything Sullivan did. This doesn't mean that Jeffries wins, just that he has the better resume.

 

Why did he have to fight Ruhlin, whom Fitz had half killed ,before fighting Fitz .2 years before in fact?

What had Corbett done in the period between his first fight with Jeffries and his 2nd, 3 years later to warrant a title shot?
If Corbett's first effort merited a second title shot why did Jeffries wait 3 years before giving him it?
I have Pollack's books on Fitz,Jeffries, Johnson, and Dempsey.I also have Gilbert Odd's book on Fitz, and Tom Sharkey's grand daughters one on Tom. Corbett was ,by no stretch of the imagination a contender when he got his 2nd shot at Jeff. He was no more a valid contender than Jack Munroe was! The Griffin was a 4 rds exhibition with Jeffries undertaking to stop Hank or forfeit $100. Kennedy was Jeffries sparring partner.
Fitz fought 4 months after losing his crown to Jeffries. The next year ,1900, he had 4 fights winning them all by ko two of his victims were Ruhlin and Sharkey.