I think that's a separate debate. All we know is round about this time johnson wasn't at his best fighting shape. I think trying to coast against sam would cost him. I think that's exactly what would happen. I've already said a prime in shape johnson beats sam, but that isn't the johnson we're questioning here.
I love Johnson and consider him 1 of the top 5 HW of all time, but by 1913 he just wasn't hungry and determined enough to beat a prime Sam Langford. Especially in the state of mind Langford was in he would have come into the fight confident and ready for a fight.
I actually thought u said you rate Johnson number 1 HW of all time Like I said in the other thread, I feel he gets a lot of stick for not being agressive enough and not getting out of 2nd gear. He is also in my top 5 all time
I think I have johnson at number 3 all time. Not finished my hw reevaluation yet but that's how it looks to me atm.
I think he looked in decent shape from 1912-1914 from what I can see in film, in 1915 he blew up and didn't look good but he was still boxed Willards ears off for 20rounds. Anyway it's not all about being in shape, James Toney pulls out performances while being about 50-60lbs over weight
Yeah but we're talking about a prime number 1 opponent who was defeating better opponents than the supposed champ.
Well fighting better opposition doesn't make you better. And how well was he performing himself around this time? Was he even prime himself? Langford drew with Battling Jim Johnson himself (and beat him). He got a draw with a Green Wills that 1 paper had Wills winning 7 rounds (out of 10). In the rematch he went life and death with Wills getting dropped to pull out a late KO. In the 3rd and 4th Wills fights he was dominated (1915-16). He beat McVea and Jeanette multiple times but both managed to beat him and draw with him. Obviously he has top wins around this time but he is clearly very beatable himself and Jack Johnson is a level above those men. From 1913 onwards he regularly started coming into the ring well overweight at 200lbs and being overweight is going to deride a small man's performance more than it would a big man
No doubt. But, I would still pick Johnson to win against Langford in 1913, because I think The Galveston Giant would find the motivation knowing he would be in against a killer in Langford. I could be wrong, but that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Its rumoured he broke it in a wrestling match the night before, not sure how you'd break it in a boxing match
Johnson wrestled with Johnson in the third round and hardly used his left hand after that.A 35 year old Johnson, out of shape , drew with Battling Jim over 10rds Jim Johnson had fought just 7 months before and was in shape.Jack had not fought in 17months ,and was not.atsch
I think that people underestimate the scale of Johnsons mental and concequent physical decline after the Jeffries fight. This occurs just as Langford is at his absolute peak. I would definitely pick Langford in the period from 1910-1913, and probably after.