1919 Jack Dempsey vs 1960 Sonny Liston

Dempsey started as a MW as well. Patterson actually probably had more fights at higher weights than Dempsey did.

 

Yeah but Dempsey is a bigger man isn't he?

 

Dude, they were about the same size.

 

Dempsey had 2-3 inches on Floyd in height* and 2 inches in reach. They weighed about the same at ~190 lbs.
Floyd was faster, Dempsey was significantly tougher physically and mentally and punched harder.
It's Dempsey's killer instinct and demeanor that can gives him an edge over Patterson generally and especially here against Liston.

*(Patterson was not a 6"0, more like a 5"10-11. Picture 1:

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Picture 2: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/373658100321497637/)

 

Until YT came among, for me, Liston HLs were confined to the 2 Patterson and Ali fights. Very limited sampling and the stunning Patterson successes eclipsed by the dramatic losses to Ali.

What a freaking revelation it was to see Sonny in action otherwise - not just the power but a terrific boxer, really and it was still being borne out post Ali fights. Eg - Love the way an even older Sonny dismantled a big, robust and promising fighter in young Henry Clark.

 

Apologies but haven’t read every post - but the neutral corner rule was also in place for the Firpo fight by way of mutual agreement also, wasn’t it?

However, adherence to that agreement went out the window when Dempsey stood over Firpo after the first KD.

Being allowed to stay in close and hit your opponent as they’re rising is a big game changer - though some fights weren’t stopped even when the downed fighter was nearly half dead anyway.

Years after the days of Dempsey, Ali most blatantly breached the neutral corner rule upon the first KD of Bonavena - Ali even went so far as slapping down the restraining arm of the referee - different rules for some? Lol.

 

Dempsey had his own self imposed exile, didn’t he?

Would’ve been great to see him still fight hungry and frequently after winning the title.

Imagine having the footage of all the fights he had during his tear to the title - there was a clear and pronounced, ongoing improvement curve going on there - which unfortunately halted somewhat after beating Willard - easier ways to make $$$ were obviously the preferred option for the new Champ and iconic 20s celebrity.

 

Cheers buddy. But avoid me like I’m a cyclone ranger - trouble follows me or is it the other way around?

 

Seems that Rocky was naturally bigger man than Patterson too.

 

I have Liston, I just think the match favours him stylistically and that Jack has been dropped by much less powerful, and less efficient punchers

 

Can’t have been far from 195 in his peak. If the weights are things like 188, 189 etc, surely we’re not going to consider that meaningful. Those aren’t even kilos, just pounds.

To the broader point, do you think the weight will be a big factor here? It doesn’t even necessarily favour Liston, already the slower fighter by every metric, to be the heavier man.

 

Wouldn’t it be interesting to imagine the fight under the rules of Dempsey’s day. What Liston said of Ali standing over him gives me no confidence whatsoever that he would adapt to Dempsey’s rule set as well as vice versa. Of course, we have a natural bias to favour the rules of Liston’s more familiar guidelines, but which rules are used could indeed make the outcome, as even if Dempsey adjusted well to modern knockdown rules, it’s still making it harder on him than in his own day to finish a guy off.

 

It’s a great & highly unpredictable fight, for mine! As I said earlier, since both can smash the other to pieces, it will probably hinge on whether you like Dempsey’s superior speed & faster start out of the blocks, or Liston’s great reach advantage & better skills. Essentially, can Dempsey get close? If he does, I’d have to favour his chances, big time. But if Liston can hold him at mid-range, he’s got it in the bag.

In ten fights, they might go 5-5, without a single bout needing judges.

 

I’d almost rather see these two fight in a bar over a personal matter than in the ring as professionals. Great stuff.