A comparison of Liston and Usyk's best opponents

There most definitely is. (See: Prior posts clearly explaining why).

I haven't argued a case on these matters, so you're actually not caring about points I haven't even made.

Good for you and good for the 'lots of people'.

As I've mentioned in a previous post, "Rank him where you like." I honestly couldn't care less about who you rate all-time and where you rate them.

However, that you have had to go to the lengths that you have, in order to get Usyk there in your own mind, does highlight how far away he might just be, if using a fair method of appraisal.

 

If you want to rank fighters at a weight divison from an historical perspective and take it seriously, it's critical to establish a criteria and apply it consistently.

Imo, the criteria that clearly makes the most sense includes:

1.Rankings are based on resume, I.e. fights that actually happened, not what you think would happen in fights that did not happen;

2. No one single fight can contribute to a fighters standing in more than one weight division;

3. The fight is assigned to a divison as per the weight categories at the time of the contest;

4. The heavier fighter determines what weight the fight was contested at;

By definition, as per criteria 2, Usyk cannot simultaneously be ranked at CW and have his fights contested in that weight divison contribute to his HW ranking.

Given these fights were contested at weights that would have been HW contests in previous eras, this means his historical standing at HW takes a hit relative to his predecessors, whilst obviously his standing at CW has a corresponding benefit.

 

Yeah H2H is minor on my list and McGrain's was a mix i believe. A lot of emphasis on presumed H2H produces a very different list.

 

That's a perfectly explained post and i agree with every single point.

 

Due respect but you didn’t converge on any of the points I raised.

Not least being your erroneous and repeated reference to Michael Spinks being a LHW when he beat Holmes.

Spinks was a good LHW btw. In fact, he was an ATG LHW.

However, by incorrectly referring to him as a LHW (where the main body of his work resides - including his best work) you implied he wasn’t so great competing in the HW Division, even though he weighed in as a legitimate HW vs Holmes.

By your reckoning, as per your reply to me, ATG Spinks shouldn’t have automatically become “bad” just because he moved from LHW to HW.

But to repeat, you did imply earlier that Spinks, based on his merely moving up a division, wasn’t so great as a HW - and in turn you tried to use that conclusion to impugn an old Holmes who was clearly on the slide when he lost to Michael.

You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

 

Second every point here.

 

I really hope you're trolling.

 

Obviously not because Liston is a cruiserweight by today's standards and his opponents are light heavyweights/small cruiserweights. Likely he would not be fighting at heavyweight today anyway. He won the championship by beating a guy the size of Bivol.

You can rank him at heavyweight if you want but I don't see the problem with rating him at cruiserweight

 

Fair enough. Would you apply this logic to Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, etc?

 

He's not ranked at Cruiserweight because he never fought there.

 

I haven't declared myself to be anything.

I've highlighted the flaw in your method, which was initially raised by another poster and has been similarly raised to you by several other posters since.

You are making the mistake of failing to acknowledge the issues with your approach to rating Usyk, for the third consecutive post to me since I explained them to you in the following:

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threa...ks-best-opponents.722980/page-4#post-22945784

The remainder of your deflective babble touches on nothing central to the points raised or on anything else I have an interest in.

You're a Usyk fan and evangelist, I get it. But cheerleading is what cheerleading does and your interpretation of Usyk's Cruiserweight ratings as Heavyweight ratings, expecting this to serve as a legitimate Heavyweight resume comparison, has big problems.

If you can't or won't deal with the salient points and the quite obvious snags in the method, then there is nothing left to be exchanged here and any further back and forth is quite pointless.

In anticipation of you being unwilling or unable to accept there is a flaw, I will leave the discussion there and step away.

Have a good evening.