For the record, i don't think Dempsey was at his best against Tunney just like i don't think Tyson was at his best against Douglas. Both of their workrates were a lot slower. However, i do think Dempsey was in his prime (as was Tyson). He was barely over 30, still looked pretty fast, and guess what? His career best win came after he lost one-sidedly to Tunney, when he knocked out Sharkey (even if it was a bit controversial). Just like you think Douglas would always trouble (and beat?) Tyson, i think Tunney would always present great trouble Dempsey. He was certainly Dempsey's best opponent unlike Douglas was with Tyson. By the way, one thing that i noticed when just rewatching Dempsey-Tunney, is that Tunney is actually the stronger man. Most of the time, it is he who backs Dempsey up in the clinches or walks him around. Quite embarrassing considering Tunney was a lightheavyweight for most of his career. Dempsey did push Tunney down once, but i think that had more to do with balance than strength.
ChrisP, I have a similar opinion on Dempsey-Tunney in their primes. I give Tunney an even-chance or better against a prime Dempsey. I dont think Tunney was a "light-heavyweight", he's a strong SOLID 189 pound fighter, he was marvellously conditioned, lean and well-built. He's as big as Dempsey, and as you say, perhaps stronger. I dont see any "embarrassment" for Dempsey, but then I'm not looking for it. Two great fighters, two of the great heavyweight champions, IMO.
Fact remains that Tunney was a lightheavyweight for the better part of his career. A lot of people don't give Tyson much credit for the Spinks win because Spinks' resume at HW is pretty shallow. Fair enough. But Tunney's record at HW is very shallow as well. In fact, the only reason that he's ranked at heavyweight is because he beat Dempsey. What if Tyson got dominated by Spinks, twice? I would say that's pretty embarrassing.
Yes, but I think he looked more comfortable, and was improving, at 185-190. He was the same as Max Schmeling or guys like that. Same size as Dempsey. I think it's his best win, and Spinks is among the top 5 fighters he beat. Seems like a good reason to me when I watch the fights. Only with hindsight, because of how the fight actually turned out. Spinks was actually given more chance of beating (or even dominating) Tyson than any previous opponent, and perhaps any opponent afterwards excepting Lennox Lewis. Being dominated by Spinks would have been less "embarrassing" (and I dont like to use that word about men who actually have the guts to get in the ring and risk defeat) than losing to or being dominated by a few of his other title fight opponents, like say Buster Douglas for example. So, it's in hindsight that losing badly to Spinks would be deemed as the most "embarrassing" possible scenario, whereas what was actually more "embarrassing" (ie. losing to Douglas) is dressed up as something more forgivable.
There is a difference between a 31 year old and a 24 year old. Of course Tyson was not at his best vs Douglas and should not be judged too harshly for it but he was 24 compared to Dempsey who was 31. Thats a 7 year age difference right there.
Dempsey's fight with Tunney was being discussed as his "comeback to the ring" and most of the reasonable writers took it for granted that he wasn't going to be the same as before, many had taken it for granted that the 1923 Dempsey was a diminished version on his 1918/'19 peak and an extra 3 years was obviously going to erode him significantly even further. Still, they picked him to beat Tunney because they under-estimated Gene Tunney's ability. No one considered Tyson on a comeback, nor on the slide when he faced Douglas. He'd wiped out Carl Williams impressively and was expected to wipe out Douglas in February AND then Holyfield in June and reign for years to come. He was 23 years old and ACTIVE for chrissakes ! Comparing to 1926 Dempsey is just silly.
Yep the Tyson was shot at age 24 theory. I dont by it. Tyson was not in any drag out wars before Douglas. Tyson was also the yongest man to LOSE the heavyweight title. Tyson in the history of the heavyweight champions must of been the ONLY guy shot at 24.
Tunney was a great fighter and would allways give Dempsey trouble,having said that I think Dempsey had grown soft,he was "hollywood "had had his nose fixed ,was living the soft life ,he was no longer the "Mauler" a hungry hobo fighting to eat. Tunney had a plan and he carried it out ,his every waking thought was Dempsey ,he did countless hours running backwards in sand ,to strenghthen his legs ,even when playing golf ,his partners recalled ,he would "jog up the course muttering"Dempsey ,Dempsey2,"cometh the hour ,cometh the man"Tunney was primed for the fight of his life ,Dempsey was ,by Tunneys own account ,disinterested and lacka daisical.Tunney sai he noticed a difference in the rematch Jack had regained some of his fire ,his electric viciousness,but the dissipated life he had led meant that though his heart and desire were there ,his legs didnt carry him in to firing range quickly enough,he was lucky to beat Sharkey ,who by his own admission was beating the **** out of him,and his sparring seesions with Loughran had to be stopped as he was made to look clumsy and slow ,Greb who had been alone in picking Tunney to beat Dempsey in the first fight said that gene might even stop Jack in the rematch,and if it had benn 15 rds ,he might have,Ima big Dempsey fan but stylistically Tunney would allways be hard for Jack,and Tunney could dig a bit with that short right.
Tunney was hungry and had been gradually preparing for Dempsey for years. Dempsey was living off the fat of the land, returned to the ring after 3 years and found out he no longer had enough to be the best. Gene is certainly a contender for an all-time top-ten slot, a tribute to the sterling greatness of a man who, unlike most other past greats, has in fact impressed me ABOVE AND BEYOND what I had read once I actually saw him on film. Athleticism, brawn, technique, intelligence. A truly admirable Fighting Marine.
Actually you are wrong. KO i think it was ran a large article speculating if Tyson was ready to be taken not that long prior, talking in depth about his mental drama's, depression and car accident as well as going into other points. There were quite a few questions being asked about him right thru the Bruno and Williams fights regardless of whether he knocked them silly.
Hello 80s man It is the 21st Century now, if you want to be with it, you need to forget Tuney's Heavyweight work* and rant and rave about him being an under appreciated 175lber.... *Even if you are spot on. p.s. I appreciate the oxymoron of the title of the thread:good