After the Keith Thurman upset, is Manny Pacquiao a greater fighter than Muhammad Ali?

I'd pick Liston to win every fight here by stoppage. And I'm a huge Lewis fan.
I'd pick Frazier to beat Holmes, Vitali, Wilder, Joshua and Fury.

Liston loses both, badly. Frazier is always destroyed by Foreman but the best Joe always beats the best Ali.

I'd pick both to win all 3, Liston stops all 3 and Joe stops Marciano and Louis.

 

Fair enough. I’m not seeing your logic on Frazier beating wilder or even Joshua though. It’s like foreman didn’t show much skill in just overpowering and outsizing Frazier. Wilder is at least foreman-esque level of power, surely he can achieve the same results. Same with Joshua. And he will need a ladder to reach Fury’s face.

 

Wilder is a strange one to me, and he definitely could win. But he's not shown he could take Frazier's body shots and I don't like the guy, so I'm gonna pick Joe. Also Wilder's best punch is an overhand right, Joe was a master of slipping them and as such a smaller guy I think Wilder would have serious difficulty landing consistency, not that he'd need to land more than 3/4 times.
Joshua now has shown he can't take Frazier's body attack and hes slow and not fluid like Ali is, who Missed a lot against Joe at his absolute best.

Foreman's power wasn't the reason he won that night. It was his ability to keep Joe at the range he wanted, and then used his power to demolish him. I can't see Joshua doing that whilst taking punishment.

I agree, but he'd have to go about it in a different way.

He should just pummel the body then go for the head when he's slowed down. I'm not like absolutely positive that Joe beats Fury and Wilder, it's like 55-45 fights.

 

Pac's resume at 122lbs:

Ledwaba (good win)
Julio (fading bantamweight champ )
Lucero (undefeated but relatively crude contender)
Rakkiatgym (solid but unspectacular contender)
Sanchez (draw)

Missed Bones Adams and (Ring 112lb champ) Paulie Ayala, who were rated above Ledwaba before he met Pacquiao.

Did face WBC counterpart Oscar Larios but at featherweight/

Eh...Decent body of work, but not exactly the equivalent resume of Bazooka Gomez, Jeff Fenech, MAB, or Morales.

Ali's first championship reign, on the other hand, featured wins over...

Liston (x2)
Patterson (former champ)
Chuvalo (Top 10, longtime contender)
Coooper (Top 10, rematch of previous fight)
London (softest touch, still a fringe contender)
Mildenberger (top 5 contender, European champ)
Williams (past prime but still top 10)
Terrell (WBA champion to re-unify title)
Folley (Top 5)

And, it was after the Folley fight that Ali was stripped of his championship.

That's closer to domination of a weight class...And it may well have been even more thorough had Ali not been exiled.

 

Ayala had such a brief stint at 122 it was all, but impossible for Pac to fight him. Pac cleaned out the 122 opposition that was available to him. Similar to Hopkins at 160. The competition was weak, but the fighters were the fighters.

 

You can not penalize Ali because he was born a HW. That's the only weight class he could compete in. That doesn't take away from his greatness. Especially when he's considered the best HW of all time in a classic division like HW.
I disagree with your assertion that Ali being robbed of his prime helped his career, a fighter being robbed of his prime never helps their career, it's tragic that we never got to see a peak Ali and what he could have really gone on to accomplish. Guys like Frazier were great in their own right and his merits stood on its own. Ali being away didn't make Frazier great, that's doing a dis-service to Frazier. That's like saying when PBF retired the first time that allowed other fighters to be great, it's nonsense and unfair to the other fighters who fought at 147. Like I said Pac is an ATG I have him as the second best of this era but neither Pac nor PBF are in the same galaxy as Ali.

 

The difference is PBF was never knocked out or outboxed like Pac was. He won a close fight against JLC in their first fight then in the rematch won going away. He won a close fight against Maidana in the first fight then in the rematch won going away. Pac won a close second fight with JMM but in the third fight still didn't win clearly and in the fourth fight was KTFO. PBF dominated his rematches Pac didn't.

 

Pac's 122lb division wasn't strong...but he still could have unified, and wasn't able to complete said unification. That, and the fact that he registered less than 5 successful defenses means that his tenure at 122 shouldn't be considered a wholesale cleanout.

 

Pimp, you and a few of the die hard Floyd fans/pac haters have mentioned that Pac was the favorite to win against Thurman. This is true but so what? is that suppose to mean something? Floyd was the favorite in most if not all of his fights... does it mean he gets less or no credit?

 

Well Pac is begging Floyd for that rematch to show that the first fight was due to his shoulder injury.

 

In the thread title it says Pac upset Thurman which is not true.

 

PBF has been retired since 2016 is 43 and shot. The fight was not even worthy of a rematch it wasn't close. Pac needs to rematch Jeff Horn who he lost to and is still active.

 

McGrains list was years ago. I highly doubt he'd have Pacman at 48.

 

Mayweather clearly lost to both Castillo & Maidana but got "Vegas" dec "wins" Should have DQ losses to both Ortiz & Judah too Plus due to IV gate May/Pac should be ruled a N/C. Floyd doesnt come close to Pac when you consider these
Pac is The Fighter of the Era !!!