No, he really couldn't - otherwise you'd see at least a handful of more definitive knockouts on his record. The examples you gave, which sound like a lot but really isn't that many, are just natural occurences. A fighter will throw good punches from time to time, but what he throws normally is what matters. Not convinced. I mean, you have obviously studied Ali's career in depth, probably more than I have since you can mention singular punches, but that's not necessarily a good thing. Many of these punches didn't stand out to me; probably because I didn't see them as anything special. They were special in the context Ali because he didn't usually throw anything as powerful. Please don't confuse correctly thrown hooks/uppercuts for 'powerful punching turned on when needed.' As I said before, this all a big case of 'well Ali hit Cleveland Williams in the body a couple of times - see, I told you he could body punch.'
Why are these needed? It's all already there. Before his lay-off he had a KO ratio that was not extremely far from Louis' before his lay-off. Even after his prime he stopped two fighters that never were stopped before or after and he retired with a a good KO ratio all in all. His was no ordinary KO record. It was a very good one with some truly impresssive stoppages, and yet you claim he achieved this without having either technique or power? That just doesn't make sense. You're trying to pass off Alis KO's off like something that more or less every fighter achieves, but this is just plain wrong. No other fighter ever stopped Bonavena or Foreman. And few other fighters stopped Ellis, Patterson, Frazier and Lyle, and not many have a better KO ratio than Ali all in all. Certainly not if they continued for so long past their primes. I repeat McGrains question to you "which other fighter with Ali's power has stoppages like Bonavena and Foreman on their record?" I would also like to extend that with asking you to name other fighters with Ali's power who has as many and as good stoppages overall. Until you give satisfactory answers here, your argument has no leg to stand on really. Well, in most of these examples they were enough to take out fighters known for their durability. There is nothing cosmetic with that. That's what they're supposed to do. That's good punching turned on when needed. There's a big difference here. Since Ali never hurt anyone to the body it's ridiculous to claim he was an adept bodypuncher no matter how many jabs he threw to Williams' stomach. But, again, there are solid evidence that Ali could punch hard and well enough to take some tough guys out of there, since he after all got them out of there. The examples of footage of this are really the icing on the cake. They just show how it was done. EDIT: Speaking about examples, why don't you provide examples of when Ali had an opponent ready to go, but couldn't capitalize because his punching wasn't good enough.
Heres my view Muhammed Ali wasnt a 'big puncher' so to speak. If you measured his punches they wouldnt be the most powerful. If he threw 1 big shot it wouldnt be one to bring down a house. However he was a 'good puncher' he made up for his lack of power with sharpness, speed and accuracy. He landed the shots in the right place at the right time and when the opponent couldnt see the shot coming. He timed shots excellantly. Which coupled with his speed and accuracy were as devastating as a Foreman Haymaker. Ali was a sniper where Foreman was a tank
I did my debating earlier in the thread - I'm not getting dragged down into another long winded debate because to be quite honest, after a while it gets boring. Just to let you know, I could argue back if I wanted to (pride at stake, needed to be said) :yep No, **** it, I will begrudgingly carry on with this... What's already there - devastating knockouts? Don't make me laugh mate. He had a few - not enough to warrant a 7/10 for power. Even some of his heartier knockouts didn't seem completely devastating, more a selection of nice punches strung together against an opponent who couldn't deal with them. Ali rarely broke people. Does that mean Ali was nearly as good a puncher as Joe Louis? Of course not. It means he exhausted, outboxed and outpsyched Sonny Liston twice, imposed his physicalities on Floyd Patterson, sliced up Henry Cooper twice, flustered a very weedy Brian London and so on. In the Karl Mildenberger fight (for instance), you can't tell me those punches were hard. Now, post lay-off? Apparently Ali sat down on his punches then and became a harder hitter. I watched him beat the crap out of Floyd Patterson for a second time, who was known to have a bit of a shaky one, yet he just couldn't crush him. Ali was throwing all his force into those shots but couldn't repeat what other fighters of the previous era had. Impressive stoppages? I suppose the Oscar Bonavena fight is one of the prime examples. Ali landed a nice hook (one of the handful of famous punches by the man, which obviously tells you something - there should be dozens more for a 7/10 puncher) to the jaw which sent Bonavena down, but let's not act like it was hardcore super sex! Bonavena got up and was pounced upon, twice, and was still rising when the fight was stopped. Only barely concussive I'd say for that one. George Foreman - ****ed beyond belief. See it in his punches. Good knockout still. I'm not going to attempt to downplay any good stoppage or knockout Ali inflicted, because he did have some. Some - just like any heavyweight should have, regardless of power. It seems like I'm being unfair on Ali, and I am in a way, but it's because 'some' fans are a bit too enthusiastic :good It's the way he knocked them out. Well, he didn't knock them out. Ali was capable of stunning a man genuinely, here n' there, but mostly he would just dazzle them. He was quick and accurate, and that was normally enough to achieve a stoppage on its own. Cuts, exhaustion... You know as well as I do that if Joe Louis had Jimmy Ellis in front of him, on the ropes, he'd have knocked him into next year. Ali didn't, and I don't care if he could or he couldn't - he didn't. Holyfield would have knocked him out, I'm sure Holmes would have battered him more convincingly as well in the same situation, like he did to Marvis Frazier. Well at the moment, your argument is on a pogo stick. Clutching at straws. Which other fighter... I'll give you the first one who came to mind - Kid Gavilan. Stopped Tony Janiro, admittedly late in his career, but who was heavier than Gavilan and had only been stopped by Rocky Graziano in ninety five fights. And Gavilan had him seriously buckling. I'm sure I could find many more examples if I took the time to double check every fight I have in my head (I've forgotten a fair few from being away from it all), but I'm not going to. It's not necessary. Gave a couple already. Patterson was the one that stood out - second fight. Now I've missed out some bits of your post that didn't need addressing because I wanted to save some space on the page to try to hammer this into you: you know what 'average' means in this context, yes? The norm, regular. In the middle. Now, if Earnie Shavers is a 10, and Mike Tyson is a 9, and Joe Louis is an 8 or 8.5... And Evander Holyfield is a 7 or 7.5 - because he was clearly less powerful than Joe Louis but clearly more heavy handed than Muhammad Ali - then Ali must be closer to 6, yes? Well I'd say Larry Holmes was a 6.5 to 7, and also seemed heavier handed than Ali. So, a 5.5? That's where I'd rate him. You simply can't have Ali much higher because where the hell are all the 3s and 4s? The same people who rate Ali a 7/10 will also rate Chris Byrd about 5/10, but he didn't have average power for a heavyweight, did he? Of course not, he had below average power. Which would be about 3.5 :good Many people regard 5/10 as a poor rating, but it's not. It's especially not when you have most of the other main attributes rating at about 9/10.
I've already stated that Ali was more about precision, speed and technique than power, so you're more or less chasing shadows there. But I don't know what you mean with "broke people". He gave several fighters severe beatings and knocked a couple out cold. But no one here has tried to put Ali in the devastating one punch KO-artist category. He knocked London the **** out. He wasn't flustered, he was unconscious. But of course Louis was a more devastating puncher. No one disputes that. But one should also note that Louis' opponents generally were smaller and that several of his most famous KO's came late in fights and/or when he had given the other a guy a severe beating before. I don't know if I agree with this. It seems mainly be claimed by those who thinks that Frazier beating him in FOTC means he'd beat in 1967 as well. What we do know for sure is that Ali's right hand bothered him in his whole career post-exile. That wouldn't help his punching, would it? That's one way of looking at it. Another is that Ali hadn't landed anything of consequence before that round, went out into it with intent and two rounds later had achieved what only he himself, Liston and Ingo had done before: stopping Floyd. You can say all you want about how tired they were, but they were tired in other fights as well, but never, ever got stopped then. Hell, an ancient, dead tired Foreman held on for the distance against Holyfield. No, it's because you're not objective. You keep on with "like every HW should have", but the thing is - hardly any other HW ever has. Hell, did even Tyson or Louis stop two guys in their prime that weren't stopped before or after? You ignore the fact that Ali's KO record is better than most's, not only in terms of numbers at stats, but even more in so in terms of who he stopped. This "like every other HW should have" doesn't cut it, not when we're discussing things that no other HW did. He knocked out Foreman sure enough. Perhaps. But neither Holmes or Holyfield KO'd the the un-KO'able guys of their generation, guys like Mercer, Foreman or Bowe. Overall they have less impressive stats against the really durable fighters they met I'd say. They are both viewed as guys with decent power and very good technique. If Ali was inferior in both aspect, why has he the more impressive KO's and stoppages? They also hardly did better against common opponents. A prime Holmes wasn't much more impressive against a post prime Norton than a post prime Ali was against a prime Norton. And he wasn't closer to stop him. A prime Holyfield was less impressive against an ancient Foreman than a post prime Ali was against a prime version. And, crucially, failed to KO him, like Ali did. So the guy you come up with didn't even have one KO/stoppage that never was repeated before or after? It is if you want to make a convincing argument. Again, I've never claimed Ali to be one of the top punchers power-wise. I'd say he punched a bit lighter than Holyfield, but on par with Holmes more or less. But the fact that he still has the better KO record than these very technical and skilled fighters (who are at the very least equal with Ali in terms of power) must say something about his own skill and technique. Again, since you seem to deem Ali inferior to these guys in both punching technique and power, what kind of magic made him score more impressive KO's than they did?
Sure. I won't be here then, though. Going out sailing for the week and when I return I might just let it lie (knowing myself, though...). Hopefully it's so far back by then that I can't find it.
What is the round and round about ... Ali had a decent punch, nothing great. Boxing is filled with examples when a KO comes out of left field, inexplainable by logic, simply the right punch at the right time .. sometimes the it defies logic ... James Jeffries fights Sharkey for 45 rounds and produces one knockdown but Fitz bounces him like a ball ... Michale Nunn crushed Sumbu Kalamby with one shot in the opening round ... Not a big hitter. Bentiez drops Hope with one shot ... Not a big hitter. Evander Holyfield drops Ray Mercer but Lennox Lewis hits him a ton and cannot ... Ellis and Ali drop Bonavena but Frazier in 25 rounds cannot ... You can do this forever ... Ali , because of his style, talents and hand injuries was never a huge puncher. Liston, Foreman, Frazier were stopped by being worn down ... Bonavena was caught right .... there is no real surprise here ..