Ali beat the best opposition in title matches. Who's #2?

Not excuses.
I'm talking about the actual quality of the opposition. Not reputations or expectations.

I don't care whether it's Sonny Liston or some guy I've never heard of, if he gives up after a few rounds all out of breath and saying he cannot go on because his shoulder hurts, then he doesn't represent great opposition. And the second fight was more pathetic still.

Young Foreman's just plain overrated. Completely amateurish, no strategy, no polish, not much record to speak of. People went completely overboard with Foreman because he knocked out Frazier and Norton.

 

:-(
The reason he was out of breath was because Ali was outboxing him and moving. Liston juts couldn't beat Ali. and who knows about the shoulder injury. you dont know if liston was really injured or not

Foreman was good. Frazier and Norton are good fighters too. Anyway the point is those two guys are better then anyone on Louis's or Holmes resume.

 

different point of view but it has merit.....

 

I don't care if he was injured or not.
And Liston's stamina was poor, whatever way you slice it.

Maybe they are.

 

No.
But if he quits prematurely, or flops at the first hint of a punch, he's hardly shown up as great opposition.
Liston's being given credit for being "great" but he didn't even show the basic qualities of a great fighter in the Clay/Ali fights. He showed no resolve, no desire to engage in a real fight. He was pathetic.

 

well, if he was injured, that explains why he quit..? atsch
based on what? Not training hard for that fight? being past his prime?

They are. How are you saying that Frazier and Norton aren't good fighters??

 

We can't really the use the Liston fights as a so-called 'barometer'.

The guy was a full blown 'alcoholic' from 62' thru 65', and who knows what else.

I still like to think that at the time they fought for the title;
Ron Stander, Terry Daniels and Dave Zygliwecz beat;
Jean-Pierre Coopman, Richard Dunn and Alfredo Evangilista

 

Great fighters, defending champions, dont quit with those sorts of injuries. You go in there to fight. Liston could see his opponent, he was steady on his feet, and he was throwing punches with both hands. He landed a good LEFT JAB just before the bell ending the sixth round, a scoring punch. Then he quits, saying he can't use his left. That's pathetic.

I didn't.

 

I don't think he was made to look foolish. It was his decision to quit. I certainly don't share your opinion that Liston looked superb past his prime, ever.
I think a significant variable factor in Liston-at-his-best compared to Liston-in-the-Clay-fight is that he was no longer the hungry contender with something to prove. He wouldn't be the first fighter to lose his edge on winning the title, and not the last either.

I see what you're saying about Ali deserving some credit. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit. I'm saying that Sonny Liston with that crappy attitude is not necessarily any better a fighter than a load of good contenders who might not have the "big name" and reputation that he had, but who nevertheless were good and actually came to fight.

 

The most favourable thing you can say about that reasoning is that it calls for a lot of speculation. What we can say with absolute certainity is that Liston had been the most formidable presence in the HW division for about 5 years and would continue racking up wins for another 5. That is more than what you can say about any other dethroned champion (unless, perhaps, if you believe Frazier dethroned Ali).

And even though you're right that prime Foreman turned out to not be the unbeatable monster he was viewed as before Zaire, he was certainly a very, very dangerous opponent. To try to pass him off as an overrated champ with the actual quality of just another contender is ludicrous.

 

That is certainly overstating it. He was some way past his prime, but he had been undefeated for five years and just came off a dominating win over a top contender. That is not "****" by any reasonable definition.