Ali beat the best opposition in title matches. Who's #2?

I'll take an educated guess and say it has to be some white guy who refused to fight black guys and that we have little film of, as an educated all knowing guess

 

I don't know but we're discussing it in an all-time context. People are claiming that the value of Ali's ability to beat that Liston transcends its own time and stands high up above wins over lesser-named heavyweights.
I mean, I could say "no other fighter boxing would have beaten Billy Conn the night Louis beat him", or "no other fighter boxing would have beaten Tim Witherspoon the night Holmes beat him" ... but if I went around claiming Conn and 'spoon equal to that Liston in real value I'd be shot down. Although perhaps I'm more than inclined to do so.

No. The bottom line is that he quit like a bum, gave up the championship because .... I don't know, he had a date and he didn't want to be late. Even if Ali was the greatest thing ever, other lesser fighters at least made more of an effort.

My opinion on Foreman is that he was just overrated. He went from being quite lightly regarded to being "the next Joe Louis" simply on the strength of two quick KOs (Frazier and Norton). He was steered around about all the top contenders on his way to Frazier, he still had a lot to prove. I don't overlook his pure nightmarish destructiveness, but I'm still not convinced he proved dominance over the division. He matched up well with Frazier.

 

I'm not speculating much when I point out that a supposedly great fighter who shows sub-standard determination and resolve is not better than a very good one who comes to fight his heart out.
It's common sense.

I would never call Foreman "just another contender".

I think the whole logic of a flat-out hierarchy between "champs", "great champs", and "good contenders" is seriously flawed though.

If Joe Frazier had given Muhammad Ali a rematch, as you reckoned he should, and Ali had beaten him, as you reckon he would have, then Foreman probably would have been destined to be another "good contender" in that synthetic pecking order.

 

No, not ANY other fighter who might try harder.

.... although you do leave open the possibility than Liston could have been paid to lose ?

I don't know who Liston would have quit against or not. It's absurd that he gets a pass for his quit job simply because Clay is rated as great. It's even more absurd that Liston retains his own stamp of greatness through the incident of quitting.
I know he quit against Clay prematurely, thereby proving that he sucked on that night relative to his reputation and alleged prowess (or greatness).

Yes, he was better than the actual lesser fighters, that's definite.
But still Ali "made him quit", which should seriously throw into doubt how good Liston was, on that night, or ever.

 

The fly in this particular ointment is that Liston showed plenty off determination until it became clear he couldn't win. Could he have lost with more dignity? Yes. Would it have altered the final outcome? In all likelihood no.

I don't think that tiny bit of uncertainity seriously undermines the quality of Clay's win.

That is unnecessary speculation IMO. Foreman undeniably showed himself to be a force. Those are the facts. Why go into how things possibly would have turned out had he challenged Ali and not Frazier for the title? We know what he actually did and that is plenty.

 

I lived in South Fallsburg in New York.
Worked at 'The Pines' where Sonny trained regularly, primarily in the summer of 1962.
Saw him and his friends all the time.
Followed his stay up here in 1962.
Much consumption.

My favorite fighter, and have accumulated alot of information over the years.

 

I agree that Foreman is a tad over rated. I still think Lewis beat the 2nd best opposition in title matches.

 

When the going gets tough ....

Great fighters aren't supposed to think "I can't win !" until things get A LOT LOT WORSE than things were for Liston.

The purpose of my example was to illustrate how the label "champ", "great champ", "very good contender", and the supposed pecking order depends greatly on circumstance rather than an actual significant difference in quality of the fighters.

 

After May 26, 1965, 17 tickets/arrests for drunk driving in Denver, alone
in a little over 6 months, up to the end of the year.

Now, your not that naive to think Sonny was only drunk 17 out of
of Oh, lets say 200 days.
And the only time he was drunk, was when he was driving those 17 days.
Why do you think he was asked to leave Denver, an area that his wife
loved?

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ2p0j9W_OI&playnext=1&list=PLF955437974DA0174&index=21[/ame]

That?

Yeah. One left jab. That doesn't mean it was injured or not. I have pulled my shoulder before and believe me its not fun at all. I'm sure he can throw one left jab, even with a bad shoulder. This is the same with the Vitali Klitschko-Byrd Fight. It's justified. They had a legitimate injury. But keep in mind that Liston was already past his prime and likely didn't train so hard to fight Ali.

 

Yeah. Ali dancing around and making the fight harder like that also probably made liston quit as well.