Ali beat the best opposition in title matches. Who's #2?

I think one of the problems when breaking down this fight, we use;
Cassius Clay's fights versus a 185 lbs. Doug Jones, and a 188 lb. Henry Cooper.
Both good fighters in their own right, but not great fighters.

Those bouts were in early-mid 1963, so Clay had an additional 8 months to grow in a
young body.

We also, look at Sonny, as the man who destroyed a frightened Floyd Patterson,
who for all purposes, fought the most complete wrong fight in the history of boxing, not
once, but twice.

Even Willie Reddish, Sonny's trainer said he had no distinct idea on how to prepare for Clay.
We thought he would freeze-up, just like Patterson, then Sonny would clobber him to the mat in the 1st Round.

When the 1st Round ended, and Sonny turned to head back to the corner, I'm thinking, what am I
going to tell him,,,Clay wasn't supposed to move that quick.

 

Cassius Clay was a lot better than a lot of experts thought. They did n't realise that his fists could back up his lip.

 

:rofl

Holmes as #1 and the fact Ali and Clay are seperated..he changed his name when he won the Championship.

 

Cassius Clay held the championship from 1964 thru 1967.

Muhammad Ali won the title in 1974 and held it thru 1978, lost it and regained it.

They weren't the same people.
One was born a Baptist.
The other was from the Nation of Islam.

 

Il Duce strikes again!


Clay changed his name after the first Liston fight. Changing religion doesn't make you a new person, you dope!


After winning the championship from Liston in 1964, Clay revealed that he was a member of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam"]

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[/ame] (often called the Black Muslims at the time) and the Nation gave Clay the name Cassius X, discarding his surname as a symbol of his ancestors' enslavement, as had been done by other Nation members. On Friday, March 6, 1964, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_X"]

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[/ame] took Clay on a [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tour_guide"]

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[/ame] of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations"]

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[/ame] building (for a second time). Malcolm X announced that Clay would be granted his "X." That same night, [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elijah_Muhammad"]

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[/ame] recorded a statement over the phone to be played over the radio that Clay would be renamed [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad"]

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[/ame] (one who is worthy of praise) [url]

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[/url] (fourth [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashidun"]

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[/ame]). Only a few journalists (most notably [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Cosell"]

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[/ame]) accepted it at that time. Venerable boxing announcer [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Dunphy"]

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[/ame] addressed the champion by his adopted name, as did British reporters. The adoption of this name symbolized his new identity as a member of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Islam"]

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[/ame].

 

Good of you to show what you're really about. Don't know why you crackpots get drawn here, though.

And I supposse that you're perfectly aware that "Il Duce" was the title Mussolini afforded himself. Frankly, people like you disgust me and you will be the first on this forum that I put on my ignore list.

 

Yeah, it took him long enough to show his true agenda. I thought he just hated Ali because of the "The Greatest" tag that annoys people. Same deal with Marciano being a target because of the "49-0." Obvoiusly, there is something a little deeper and more troubling with this guy.

 

There certainly is. I also thought he just was of the variety that's dislikes Ali because of his mainstream status, but that comment in combination with the coin finally dropping concerning "Il Duce" being Mussolini's title makes it all as plain as could be.

 

Bokaj,

I think you're jumping to incorrect conclusions about Il Duce.
He's a really good postor, and has a wealth of knowledge and insight into 60s and 70s heavyweights especially.

 

For all of this knowledge he uses to continously bash Ali and Patterson, he didn't know when Clay changed his name, that Chuvalo was a replacment opponent for Terrell, and completely ignored the historical context for Ali's European tour. And his above posts are very telling.

 

Definitely. He'd never be on my ignore list, the Clay/Ali post seems a bit of a wind-up to me and it made me chuckle (at least I hope it is)!!. I've learnt more new facts in his few weeks here than almost anyone can provide in a whole year. But what people would obviously prefer is a forum where Jean Pierre Coopman is regarded as classes above Lucien Rodriguez and Terry Daniels (despite losing to the former twice and only beating the latter, who was years past his prime, on a DQ, having been decked by him earlier in the fight). :yep

 

I don't dispute that, but that doesn't exclude him from having a pretty dirty agenda. His poster name is after all the most infamous fascist title ever after "Der Fuhrer". Add to that his suggestion that Ail became a different person when he converted and I personally see a pretty clear pattern.

 

True. Anyone who has something true to say about the hammy fakery aspects of Ali's career gets shot down in flames around here, and the old chorus of "Ali victimization" comes out.
Like you, I've learned a lot from I'll Duce's prolific postings on such figures as Bobick, Merritt, even Turnbow, Machen, etc.
And he's been one of the few to share an interest in research the behind-the-scenes promotional labyrinth of big heavyweights fights of the 60s.

But anyone that threatens the doctrine and orthodoxy of "the church of Ali" is burned at the stake around here.

Everyone has their idiosyncracies, and if II Duce thinks Clay and Ali are different people, that's up to him, like Foreman Hook's "Foreman/Old Foreman" dichotomy.
Hey, even if the guy has a Mussolini fixation, that's his business. As of yet, I fail to see ANYTHING in any of his posts that belie a fascist agenda. He's here to talk boxing history and I am enjoying it !

:good

 

it is not a case of who is number 2 because number 1 is holyfield evander fought the best fighters at the time for title matches and his resume consists of less tomato cans than ali or marciano and number 2 is holmes:think

 

Man, that's tired BS.:roll: Who here has ever put forth Coopman, London etc as good opponents? That's a discussion you have with your own shadows.

What's actually discussed is whether Ali's wins over Liston, Patterson, Frazier, Foreman etc. have any worth or if it were just fixes and shot opponents. Start a thread about how **** Gavilan, LaMotta, Zivic, Basilio etc were when Robinson beat them if you really want to play a martyr.