Ali beat the best opposition in title matches. Who's #2?

Well, Ali, and most other sincere religious converts, would say they DID become a different person on converting.
In the boxing context, he wouldn't be the first to say that post-exile and pre-exile were completely different fighters with different strengths and different career.
Anyway, what was that list where he rates Ali/Clay "both" in the top 5 ? If I didn't know better I'd say that he was an Ali "nuthugger", he finds a way to rank the guy TWICE, like ForemanHook does with his hero.

Besides, I don't see a link between "disrespecting" Ali and being a fascist/racist sympathiser. NOTHING in Il Duce's posts show any prejudices towards any race in particular.
And if you have such a moral stand against fascist or racist ideology, you'd do well to examine exactly what Ali DID stand for in the 60s and most of the 70s.

 

This place if ****ing hopeless.

Nobody championed Coopman as a jewel in Ali's resume. It is however important to understand that he was a comeback opponent after the man had been hospitialized from a war with Frazier before facing the real top contenders in Young and Norton later that year. The pattern of Ali's second title run is easy to figure out: warm up, real contender, warm up, real contender. Arguing he didn't fight the best available warm up opponent is just plain irrelevant..it was a warm up opponent.

 

Ok, so what exactly is it in Il Duce's posts that you class as "Ali bashing" or a sinister agenda ?
He seems to have made enemies around here by dissecting Ali's opposition. That's all.

I don't know as much about Robinson. I suspect Basilio sucked a bit, and is overrated, though, now you mention it.

 

A fascist poster name would be it.

Before I made that connection I saw him as an object of amusement as much as of irritation (almost at least). More than anything I thought he was a waste of time.

But hey, glad to see you're so open minded. If someone comes in under the name of Bin Ladin and has a clear agenda against fighters that's converted from Islam (if there are any) at least we know that you won't see anything untoward in it.:good

 

I have actually and posted about it here.

 

I don't think Benito Mussolini even had a slight interest in what religion the African-Americans adopted, so I'm completely lost over the link you've made between Il Duce's user name as his alleged feelings towards Muhammad Ali.

You talk of a "clear pattern", there isn't one.

 

Well, it is when you post.

Warm up opponent should mean non-title fight- so it would go: contender, warm up, contender and so on. If a champ want to take on the Coopman's and Wepner's of this world it should be as a non-title tilt for the Norton's and Young's. Also, for your information, it was mentioned on here that Ali never defended his title against someone in the Rodriguez/Daniels class, when he so obviously did. :hi:

 

Mussolini and his fascists were intimately connected to the church (as were Franco's fascists) and their whole ideology was based on absolute intolerance against other beliefs and religions (especially the Jewish one).

Would you say that it's a wild guess to say that Ali isn't hugely popular among white supremasists and fascists in general?

 

With that said, I agree that the Nation of Islam can be called fascist (but against whites and non-muslims). But I wouldn't warm to someone who called himself "Farrakhan" either.

 

The core of fascisct ideology is that people are defined by their race, etnicity and religion. A poster sporting the nickname/title of one the worst dictators and mass murderers in European history suggests that Ali reserructed as a different person when he converted to Islam, and it's strange of me to react against this...?

I think this is the only time I've ever felt actually truly disgusted here in Classic. OK that you have One Punch, Danger and the other nut jobs in General and the Lounge, but so far this place have been a lot better. Well, at least I thought so.

 

-That is your opinion, but not the way boxing works. Easy defenses are common in busy titles reigns, Marciano was the only non-filler Champion but he was also the least active until recent decades.

-Again, its an irrelevant point as Ali's career is not defined by an easy defense over Coopman.

 

Coopman must easily have the highest number of mentions on this forum for such a **** fighter. Well, perhaps Lubbers can compete.

 

I have enjoyed reading the counter-posts to my posts.

Il Duce is just a user name, it has nothing to do with Fascism or Mussolini.
You can make your own conclussions.
In the Italian language, Duce' translated means, chief or leader.

As for the information, that I have contributed. I have done my best to post accurate information, as I have dug through numerous files, articles, and newspaper accounts in
the smallest of publications.

I have tried to take an objective view, from a different angle on Sonny Liston, and
his fights with Cassius Clay I and Muhammad Ali II.
Instead of looking on the surface, like most people do, I have dug a little deeper, into the those delicate regions that no else seemed to explore.

Plus the fact, that I lived in South Fallsburg, NY, and was right there witnessing
Sonny Liston in person, not through magazines and old tapes.

On my remark about Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali, being (2) different people.
It wasn't to be taken literally, it was more of a tongue-in-cheek remark.

This has thread has started to become a point-counterpoint segment.
Soon, someone will be saying 'Jane, you ignorant slut'.

As for George Chuvalo as an Ernie Terrell replacement, there was more to the facts of
that fight than reported. We can spend another 50 posts on that one, but we
have already ventured their.

Mr. Mongoose and Bokaj, think I have an hidden agenda,,,,,,,,far from it.
Of course, they will take that Larry Holmes as being my favorite fighter as
some anti-Ali forum.

Mr. Un,,,,,, is open-minded and gets it much better, we have disagreed on a few things, but he is fair in his objections, leaving open another possible view.

 

You are so right Mongoose. As I'm forever saying,Ali's resime was the greatest out of all the heavyweight champions,but some zero in on his easy ones like he was the only one who had them. Strange.

 

:good Muhammad Ali,himself,actually admits that his stance was wrong.