Ali-Frazier I - Your Scorecard?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Oxygene2, May 5, 2015.


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  1. Oxygene2

    Oxygene2 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I admit I'm no pro judge and maybe I'm making serious mistakes or valuing some aspects too highly, but rounds 3 and 4 as rounds that could be given to either fighter? I think it's reasonable. Ali did a lot of fine work in those rounds, you know.


    Maybe if I score this fight again in a year, I'll have it in favour of Frazier.. but the scoring system had me giving the edge to Ali.

    My view was that it wasn't enough for Frazier to boar forward and "control the pace" because Ali was often freezing Frazier's aggression by constantly beating him to the punch and pre-empting him in various rounds.

    Some of those rounds could have gone the other way, sure, but tell me it's totally unreasonable that Ali could have won more rounds than Frazier in that fight?? There were a lot of fairly close rounds...

    Frazier needed serious time to properly establish the tempo of the fight and even when he did Ali had his periods of obvious success just when one might well think that he'd be swamped by the unrelenting Frazier and his tactics. I want to reiterate that I do think Frazier edged the fight.. if I don't look at it only through the eyes of the scoring system but just think in my heart of hearts who actually deserved to be given the victory. It's a weird paradox.. or whatever.

    Great fight.
     
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    #16
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  2. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Frazier was making Ali miss a huge % of his punches and countering with wickedly hard punches to both body and head. Just landing more blows does not win for you a pro fight.
     
    Perry, May 5, 2015
    Perry, May 5, 2015
    #17
  3. Oxygene2

    Oxygene2 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    In quite a few of those rounds he was struggling to get off in the first place. Look how long it takes for him to do any meaningful work in round 4...

    Obviously, if he lands say 2 hurtful hooks, it's worth more than 2 jabs and 2 straights from Ali, but Frazier allowed himself to get hit a LOT in the head, even if some of those blows were more glancing due to his bobbin' 'n' weavin'.
     
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    #18
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  4. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Frazier controlled the pace and was moving Ali with every blow. Also Ali tired badly and had to lay against the ropes many rounds. These rounds he lost.
     
    Perry, May 5, 2015
    Perry, May 5, 2015
    #19
  5. Oxygene2

    Oxygene2 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Yes, he started to wrestle control of the fight and the pace well before half way, but he still needs to land scoring blows. In some rounds he really did, and frequently, but in others he kept being put off by very clever pre-emptive Ali offence. When Ali took breaks and laid on the ropes, Frazier went to work and won rounds. In many rounds though, Ali only rested on the ropes for limited time.

    Some of the "controlling of pace" that Frazier did didn't actually lead to effective aggression. Gotta sleep right now but if you reply I will get back to you tomorrow, and probably also score Ali-Frazier II.

    Peace.
     
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    Oxygene2, May 5, 2015
    #20
  6. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    The way to confirm who really won this fight is simple. Those experts that watched the fight live who did they feel won the bout? The three officials of the bout all scored it for Frazier. One was Aurthur Mercante perhaps the most well respected ref in boxing history. He scored the bout 8-6-1 for Frazier. AP scored the bout decisively for Frazier, SI scored the bout for Frazier. Ring scored the bout for Frazier. In fact the closest the bout was scored and the only score that did not have Frazier winning was UPI who had it 7-7-1......a draw. The vast majority clearly choose Frazier as the winner.
     
    Perry, May 6, 2015
    Perry, May 6, 2015
    #21
  7. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just watched the entire bout again. A clear Frazier win. I had it 9-6. Frazier controlled the pace, kept Ali against the ropes and or holding and hurt him many times.

    I always found it amazing one similarity between this bout and the third. The 11th in fight one is where Joe seriously hurts Ali. It was the turning point in this bout and seemed to suck all the energy from Ali. Now watch fight three. It's not as dramatic and the commentators at ringside never even mention it. Around mid round watch for a hard hook that catches Ali full force. Both men are standing side by side with Ali's back slightly to the camera so unless you look for it you will miss it......but it hurts Ali badly......his arms drop to his sides and Frazier tees off on him with both hands.....and Ali then grabs and holds Joe for dear life and does not let go until the red forcibly prices them apart. Difference? Whereas Ali fades in fight one after that big hook he instead surges here launching his own two fisted attack making what would have been a huge Frazier round into one had to score.
     
    Perry, May 7, 2015
    Perry, May 7, 2015
    #22
  8. Oxygene2

    Oxygene2 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If I follow the rule of not awarding drawn rounds and giving them to the aggressor, then that changes my scorecards, as Frazier was typically the aggressor and fighting his fight.

    Interesting parallel that you mention between I and III. How do you score that fight up to the point of the stoppage?

    Gonna score II now.
     
    Oxygene2, May 7, 2015
    Oxygene2, May 7, 2015
    #23
  9. Perry

    Perry Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Fight three I had a draw after 10 and gave Joe the 11th due to that hook. Ali swept 12-14. So 8-6 Ali.
     
    Perry, May 7, 2015
    Perry, May 7, 2015
    #24
  10. ETM

    ETM I thought I did enough to win. Full Member

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    Ive seen this fight about a dozen times. Great fight, courage by both men. Joe was at the top of his game at his time. IMO if you give Ali the benefit of every close round I still have him losing 8-7 with a KD.

    My card was 10-5 Joe Frazier. The effect of his punches was a huge factor as well as the aggression non stop activity he showed for 15 rounds.

    Ali gets credit for winning the 9th round but I never saw it that way. He had a great finishing flurry and hurt Joe right at the end but Frazier dominated the entire round up to that point. He actually hurt Ali just as bad early in the round. Dunphy even says "Ali`s in real trouble now"
     
    ETM, May 14, 2015
    ETM, May 14, 2015
    #25
  11. Titan1

    Titan1 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    10-5 Frazier. After the early rounds, it was pretty much all Joe, as Ali was dominated.Shame Muhammad couldn't have fought him 3 more months down the road.
     
    Titan1, May 14, 2015
    Titan1, May 14, 2015
    #26
  12. boxfan22

    boxfan22 Active Member Full Member

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    Ali would have obviously won the fight if Fraizer didn't score the knock down in round 15.
     
    boxfan22, May 14, 2015
    boxfan22, May 14, 2015
    #27
  13. Boxing125

    Boxing125 Active Member Full Member

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    I watched the fight a few times and it was a close but convincing decision for Fraizer 9-6. There were many close rounds so its not easy to score - in a lot of rounds joe lands the better harder punches but the volume from Ali especially in the first five rounds is impressive.

    My scorecard:

    round 1: Fraizer
    round 2: Ali
    round 3: Ali
    round 4; Fraizer
    round 5:Ali
    round 6: Fraizer
    round 7: Ali
    round 8: Fraizer
    round 9:Ali
    round 10 :Friazer
    round 11: Fraizer
    round 12: Fraizer
    round 13: Fraizer
    round 14:Ali
    round 15:Fraizer
     
    Boxing125, Jul 5, 2015
    Boxing125, Jul 5, 2015
    #28
  14. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    Exactly as I have it. :good
     
    yancey, Jul 6, 2015
    yancey, Jul 6, 2015
    #29
  15. yancey

    yancey Active Member Full Member

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    F r a z i e r.
     
    yancey, Jul 6, 2015
    yancey, Jul 6, 2015
    #30
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