Ali Liston 2

There's a right hand Liston threw in round 3 that landed flush, Ali didn't blink, you don't throw that kind of punch if you're trying to lose.
The second fight was fixed 100%

 

This is a clear example of a fix in my book. I see no way around that fix being fixed. It just seems clear as day to me.

 

Re Ali-Liston II, I don't know about Sonny's feet, but the film shows the back of his neck flexing from Ali's punch, which to me is consistent with a solid blow to the chin. Consequently, I really have never questioned the legitimacy of the knockdown or what I perceive to be fact that both fighters were engaged in honest combat. In addition, if I remember correctly, by the time referee Walcott returned his attention to the action following Ali's hysterics, Liston was up and ready to fight, thus belying any intention on his part to quit.

What I do question is the legitimacy of the count and the stoppage of the fight by Walcott. Two things stick out to me in this regard. First, Ali didn't go to a neutral corner so the count should not have started until he did, ala Dempsey-Tunney II. On this basis alone, Walcott should not have held Liston accountable for the time Ali was clowning.

Secondly and more importantly, apart from the neutral corner issue, Walcott never did even START TO COUNT over Liston! So how was Sonny to know when to get up? If Walcott had been there counting like he should have been, Sonny very well may have risen within 10 seconds. But since there was no count, why should he have been expected to get up at all? To me, a fighter has a right to rely on the referee to tell him what the count is. The situation is similar to the brouhah about the knockdown of Douglas in the Tyson-Douglas fight.

The referee is supposed to get his information about the timing of the count from the official timekeeper. In this case, the person who notified Walcott that Sonny had been down for more than 20 seconds was the busybody Nat Fleischer who was just a bystander with no legal status in regard to the fight. Walcott should not have listened to him. Instead, he should have allowed the fight to continue. Ali should have been forced to pay the price for his antics in the ring after the knockdown by having the start of the count delayed. Instead, Liston had to unfairly pay the price for Ali's misconduct by having the fight stopped without receiving the courtesy of a count. Liston was NEVER OFFICIALLY COUNTED OUT. Walcott just arbitrarily stopped the fight on the word of Fleischer.

In retrospect, since we cannot now go back and resume the fight where it left off, the record books should be changed to rule the fight "NO CONTEST." I write this somewhat facetiously since I know this will never happen. But the fight was mishandled by Walcott, and in fairness Liston should have been allowed to continue. I doubt that the outcome would have changed, but stranger things have happened.

Another point: Ali-Liston II was originally scheduled to take place in February, I think it was, but it was postponed for three months due to Ali's emergency hernia surgery. At the time of the last-minute postponement, Liston had trained hard for the rematch and was in the best condition of his life. As I recall, he was a trim 212 pounds. I think mentally he was charged up to redeem himself after the first fight.

The postponement changed all this. It was a tremendous letdown for Liston. He had reached the point of his career where training was hard work and unpleasant for him. He had forced himself to do it once, but he just did not have the will to do it again. He was demoralized. I think that if the fight had taken place on the original date, it would have been a humdinger. I don't know that Liston would have won, but I think he would have made a good show.

 

If anyone can't see that Sonny through that fight they're blind, you can also see he's a horrible actor

 

The punch was legitimate but not sufficiently powerful to knock Liston down imo.I believe he went into the tank.
Ali himself screamed at him to get up because "no one will believe this!"

 

It just seems odd that he would take a dive that earlier!That takes guts! I think the knockdown was legit and Sonny got confused because of the count confusion.

 

The timekeeper counted Liston out but he was a little guy without a microphone and Walcott had not apprised himself of where he was sitting.Fleischer merely drew Walcott's attention to the timekeeper. I think Sonny went into the water,he told his sparring partner Foneda Cox not to bet on the fight.

 

There's truth in all that ..

 

Listons rolling around is what clinches it for me.
It's just rank poor acting.
Been knocked down or out is an involuntary thing. His actions on the canvass were like somebody trying to figure out which side was comfortable to lie on in bed, if it was in a film portraying a knock out you'd say it was badly done .
Ali knew... He stood over him telling him to get up..you can't change a first reaction...if Ali knew he had connected why would he do this ?
He KNEW Liston had dived.
The whole thing became such a farce nobody knew what to do hence why Liston got back up and was told to resume fighting. I'm sure he would've gone down again. Liston resuming fighting shouldn't be read too much into.
Remember the guy wasn't too bright !