Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

Some said there was no punch and plenty said there was a punch and it wouldn't have busted a grape. Not by a longshot did everyone that thought the fix was in believe there was no punch.

There's confusion in your summation too. 6 1/2 punches were thrown after Liston arose and put his guard up. It's all there on film. The "dazed" Liston was doing a damn good job slipping them truth be told.

 

I’m Ali’s biggest fan and would love to believe he threw the phantom punch with intent and knew the effect it would have.
I can only go off his reaction though, nobody was more surprised than him when Sonny went down. There can be no more proof than a fighter after throwing a punch and decking his opponent then gesturing for him to get up!
Having said that the more i’ve watched it over the years i’ve noticed it definitely rocks Sonny’s head back. I’m tending to think it was a flash knockdown no more, but for some reason Sonny decided to stay down.

 

Others such as Jack Dempsey....Jimmy Cannon....Bill Heinz..and Rocky Marciano thought something was up!!!

 

Foreman was a big puncher...Cassius Clay was not....

 

Look it up!!!

 

As for the punch itself, a punch only has to travel a couple inches and can do devastating damage or cause a flash knockdown. Plenty of people have seen the famous clip of Bruce Lee's "1 inch" punch but how many have seen it demonstrated in person or had it done to you? A friend of mine actually knows the technique and i stumbled backwards 3 feet when he delivered it to my chest.

Ali may have accidentally used perfect leverage when he threw his cross counter. Considering Liston did not see the punch coming the knock down honestly isnt far fetched. If you actually practice martial arts yourself you'll realize how true it is that the ones you dont see are the ones that can hurt the most. Look at Amir Khan somehow dropping the iron chinned Maidana in round 1.

I remember a sparring match i had where I threw a left hook. He and I both thought he dodged it but i just barely grazed him with the bony corner of my fist (the pinky knuckle) on his jaw. He dropped like a sack of potatoes. I was just as shocked as he was. He was up at the count of 2. The fight continued for another 3 rounds and we wailed away at each other and he showed no signs of prior damage or wobbly legs. Point being you do not need to be some devastating shavers type puncher to score an early knockdown.

Now how badly liston was hurt and if he chose to stay down longer is an entirely separate debate. But we do know the punch landed, it was fast and sharp with great accuracy, Liston did not see it coming and was visibly rocked, and we know he was both past his prime (possibly in his late 30's or even 40's) and not in his best condition/motivation. Not a huge stretch to think Ali legitimately dropped him in hind sight.

 

It's true, a punch doesn't even really have to have the full weight behind it if it's both perfectly placed (the chin or to the side) and comes out of nowhere for the victim. It's happened on far more than this occasion..might be great thread there!

 

Well...getting tagged with several sharp right hands in the minute or so prior to that moment will make you cognizant of further right hands. Liston did take a couple of left hands in that sequence, though...and all he seemed capable of doing in that moment was retreat and shell up. Given that Liston could have easily dropped to a knee and stayed down, I kinda wonder if he wasn't a bit affected by that right hand that initially put him down after all.

 

And both accounts are wrong. The punch connected. And it rattled Listons head. With the benefit of film and hindsight, the punch lands perfectly flush with power, speed, and snaps Listons head.

It connected.
It could bust more than a grape.

There is zero confusion in my summation. Yes Ali was throwing punches. Not including that detail in a quick summary doesn’t mean I’m confused, it means you had the wrong expectations in how much I would include. Liston wasn’t doing a damn good job slipping those punches. He was in a survival mode shell. If anything you're the one who seems confused. Although I’m not sure why a fairly inconsequential detail that was left out of a very quick summary would lead someone to call that person confused. Besides the fact that this forum is one big ego trip with posters looking for any opportunity to portray a sense of superiority over other posters.

 

To add to all this, Ali in private, to close friends and family, said that the fight was legit.

 

Oh, I've never thought Ali was involved, nor did I ever say so. I think you misinterpret the word fix, not everybody has to know in order for it to be a fix. A ref can try to fix a basketball game, and none of the players even know. Individual basketball players (stars) have fixed games and none of their teammates knew. There were rumblings pre fight that there could be a fix because of some betting patterns right before the fight. Ali's reaction was one that, seemed to imply he could tell it didn't land hard enough, and that Liston was laying. You don't yell "Get up, nobody is going to believe it" if you think you landed a KO punch or that Liston was legit hurt. I don't think Ali knew or wanted to be a part of it, but he certainly know that Liston wasn't as hurt as he was making out, for whatever reason.

 

The betting was odd right before the fight, and heavily jumped in Liston's favor. Two things with Ali's reaction: You don't say "Get up, nobody is going to believe this" if you A) think you landed a punch hard enough to cause a KO and B) if you think there's no way Liston could be fixing the fight. You say that when you believe one or both to be true. That was not a KO punch, and certainly not one that would keep him down and flailing away and rolling around like he did. If you think that was a legit reaction by Liston, I have some great New York steel to sell you

 

Again that was not the reaction of those experts (Cus DeMato the great trainer being one) who actually saw the blow land. A light blow does not violently jerk an opponents head and jaw as this blow did.

 

Actually it isn't proven at all.

 

Don King had nothing whatsoever to do with either fight.