Ridiculous and totally without basis. He came from one of his best victories. Saying that he was nowhere near his best... That's really not impressive. Was he at his sharpest? No. But you don't lose what he showed against Patterson in one year, you just don't. This nonsense have to stop (see the Bowe thread).
If you read what I wrote, you will see that I never said that. Here's what I stated: Boxers that Ali fought & beat that were rated #3 or above at one time or another: I really think your dreaming. PLEASE wake up and smell the roses. When Liston fought Ali, he just came off the 2 biggest wins of his career and all the experts were saying that he belongs with the all-time Greats. People were comparing him with Louis, Dempsey, Johnson and Marciano. I agree 100%. I remember when Liston came into the ring and Jimmy Brown, the NFL Great, stated that he looked like "Superman." Again, if he fought anyone BUT Ali that night, he would have won. Coming into their 1st bout Liston was 35-1 with 25 KO's, and in his last 14 bouts, he had 13 KO's.
Good question, and well put. As we all well know, Ali was the complete package, both in and out of the ring. His ability to self promote has never been approached by anyone, before or since. IMO it would have taken longer (perhaps a lot longer) for world wide recognition of Ali to kick-in without all the self-promotion, but it would have none-the-less. The fact that he fought in such a heady time for boxing is absolutely no coincidence. Is he the greatest ever? - perhaps?? Has anybody done anything that remotely approaches his overall contribution to boxing - not in a million years!!
Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, and even Superman would NOT have done that belly flop vs Ali. Liston was done. If Moore needed a tap like Ali needed to win, than I pretty sure Moore would have landed it.
Aren't you the one that stated the following: Quote: Originally Posted by Dempsey1238 This content is protected Charles could not have been rated number 1, because well he was champ when Marciano ko Louis. I wrote back by telling you the facts, which were: Charles lost his title to Walcott on July 18, 1951, Louis lost to Rocky on October 26, 1951. Charles was rated #1 at the time Rocky fought Louis. Now I will continue to educate you. Moore was a Great fighter and was one of the Greatest Light Heavyweights ever, and possibly the Greatest Light Heavyweight Champion, BUT he was no match for Liston. Sonny was 218 pounds for his 1st bout with Ali and 215¼ in the rematch. Moore weighed approx. 188 for both Rocky and Patterson, so Liston would have out weighed Moore by approx. 30 pounds. Starting in 1958 he was the most feared Heavyweight on the planet. If Ali wasn't around, Sonny would have held the title for years. He most likely would have held it until Joe Frazier came around, and that would be because Sonny would have been past his prime.
Sonny had the look like Tyson had the look and they had power but guys without fear that went back at them made them quit....I think the kink in the armor would have come out but you need the challange for it to be exposed....we know it lived inside both men...Liston quit 2 times vs Ali and tyson never got off the floor to win.....IT LIved inside them
Sonny had a terrible life, and it would have been more so if it wasn't for boxing. If Ali was never born, Sonny would have been rated as one of the Greatest ever. Who really knows what happened in those bouts with Ali. I knew one of Liston's handlers and he told me things BUT I still think Ali was too fast for Liston. Styles make fights and Liston never fought anyone like Ali, BUT then again, nobody else did either. Back in the late 1950's I became a Big fan of Liston's because no one wanted to fight him. I even have the gloves he used in his last fight against my good friend Chuck Wepner. Chuck, who fought Foreman, Ali and others, said that Liston was the hardest puncher he ever faced, and this was 5 to 6 years after he fought Ali.
He refused to serve his country, meaning some other poor non-famous person had to go in his place. He ran with the NOI, who are about as ****ing insane, repulsive and evil an organization can be. People seem to forget that he rolled with some black Nazi's and dodged the draft. As a person, he was a bum. I don't hold it against him too much however as the Army initially rejected him for service on the basis of his 83 IQ. As a fighter he's a top 10 for me, and number one in terms of accomplishments.
Liston carried on with a broken jaw in one fight and now you're questioning his heart cuz he retired against ali. Fair enough but Liston wasn't even down in that first fight. He knew it wasn't his nite and ali was far too fast to catch and he was being outboxed - his shoulder probably was gone from hitting air all nite. Maybe Duran thought the same when he did his quit job v leonard or was DURAN a QUITTER? Man they wouldn't let Archie in the ring with Liston after what Patterson did to him.
Archie got off the floor vs Marciano and Durell many times, there was no question in his heart....Mental breakdown, a threat , adversity, facing someone with no fear....it brought out the worst in them and they quit...what lived inside them was exposed...
When Ali 1st came up he was hated by most and then he was called a Draft Dodger. Well if he accepted the Draft, he would have never saw any action. He would have been like Louis was, he would have went around fighting exhibitions for the troops, BUT he didn't. He stood up for what he believed it and it cost him dearly. Very well put. Liston fought and beat the best contenders that were brave enough to fight him, on the way up. Valdes, Williams twice, Folley and Machen. He took some hard punches against Williams and still came back to win both times. Moore had a GREAT heart, and no one is questioning that. Liston showed his heart when Marty Marshall broke his jaw in the 4th round and he continued to fight another 4 rounds, before losing a close split decision back in 1954. Again, take away the Ali fights, and Liston would have reigned as the Heavyweight Champion for years.
If Liston was prone to quitting why didnt he do it when Marshall broke his jaw? Why continue and finish the fight? Why didnt he quit when Williams broke his nose?Wuilliams was the biggest puncher in the division at the time Liston fought him twice,in two rock em sock em fights.Liston gassed against Ali he was badly out of shape, hadnt properly trained.
We will never know the story of the second Ali fight but it's plain that Sonny got himself out of there,whether it was a dive or he simply quit once again we'll never know.There's no doubt however he quit in the first fight,and the puzzle is why when he'd shown tremendous fighting heart in previous fights.Anyone who hasn't seen them check out Sonny's two fights with Williams on You Tube. Just look at the bombs he walks through from the very heavy handed Williams,before taking Williams out. I think Liston's quitting in the first Ali fight is more akin to Duran's against Leonard,he just couldn't work out this crazy guy in front of him,who could humiliate him.Come at me with bombs and try to tear my head off and i'm up for that,but i can't handle all of this crazy ****.
For proud men it may be easier to stick with it when you're suffering physically than when you're being humiliated. I can't blame Liston for quitting when he was being humiliated, as he may have felt.