Angelo Dundee -"Vitali is special" but says Ali would beat him.

Bubby · Sep 13, 2011

paulfv said: ↑

Love and respect Ali and Dundee, but the trainer is wrong here.

Vitali Klitschko is the most dominant heavyweight -- maybe the most dominant boxer -- I have seen in the past 25 years.

The last person who dominated in the manner of Klitschko was a young Tyson. Who, incidentally, could have given Vitali one hell of a fight and possibly beaten him. He had the tools to do so, despite his size.

There are two versions of Ali: Pre-suspension and Post-suspension. The Pre-suspension version was superior. He was younger, faster and had better reflexes. This is the version who faced Cleveland Williams in the video posted above.

The Post-suspension version of Ali was heavier, a little bit slower and had slightly less-strong reflexes. He was still damn good, though, good enough to beat George Foreman at his most fearsome.

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. His reach (80") and height (6' 3") are pretty good, but he simply doesn't have enough mass (215 lbs) to deal with someone who is a power-of-magnification larger than him like Vitali. Particularly given Vitali's set of skills and natural ability.

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(AKA Cassius Clay)
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. This is the crux of the problem, in my opinion. Tyson had enough power, Ali did not and that means Vitali would have rushed and stalked and cut the ring off against Ali. And even if he didn't land solidly on Ali consistently, he would maul him and drape his weight all over Ali round after round. That's where the lesser body mass and height would really hurt Ali. And after about 6 rounds of this, the bounce from Ali's legs would start to fade for good in the fight.

As Tyson used to say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. Or, in this case, everyone has a plan -- Haye, Adamek, Hide, etc -- until they actually get between the ropes against the Klitschkos. There is no one in the world to mimic them, that has the same amount of size, athleticism and skill. That's why you see people so confident against them before the fight and then they go in and get mugged in the squared circle. It's shocking, when you have to try to actually deal with what they bring to the table.

There is no one Vitali has ever fought as a professional boxer who truly challenged him. That includes his two losses to Byrd and Lewis, fights he was winning when he was injured/stopped on cuts. I have discussed the Lewis fight with a former professional fighter who gave Lewis a very tough fight (when they were both professional fighters) who agreed with my assessment that Vitali "mauled" Lewis in the Vitali-Lewis fight. Vitali brutalized Lewis in that fight, in a manner no one -- particularly Lewis -- thought Vitali could. You tip your cap to Lewis for getting the win, but that (winning on cuts) is not a formula for beating Vitali. He has never been cut in that manner before or since the Lewis fight. Which could be why Lewis never decided to rematch Vitali.

Now, could Ali defeat Vitali on cuts? Yeah, sure he could. Lewis did, so why couldn't Ali? Again, though, for a man who has suffered serious cuts just one time in 45 professional boxing matches, that's not a viable strategy to rely on.

People want to talk about Ali vs Cleveland Williams. Great performance, certainly. However, as was mentioned previously, Williams was totally shot -- both figuratively and literally -- by the time he faced Ali. Williams was also a known drinker, which didn't help matters:

SOURCE: http://ind.pn/n1KRBD

In other words, Williams was a harmless opponent with a good name and record when Ali fought him. He had nothing left, didn't have the best chin but would look good on Ali's resume.

Ali looked great in the fight -- because Williams allowed him to. There is no comparison between a shot Cleveland Williams (6' 3", 80", 210 lbs) and a Prime version of Vitali Klitschko (6' 7.5", 80", 245 lbs). Besides having the same reach, there are no similarities to speak of.

Now, I mentioned above that Ali is neither big enough nor possesses enough power to defeat Vitali Klitschko. Those are two serious problems Ali would face in taking on Vitali. But
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If you look at the first two rounds of the Cleveland Williams fight, here is Ali's punch output:

R1 -- 50 punches
R2 -- 62 punches

That is very good, particularly for a heavyweight. This is a 24-year-old, young, fresh Ali. And he's facing a shot fighter who is simply following him around the ring and offering little resistance.

Now, let's look at another example of Ali's punch output. Though this is an older (32 years old) version of Ali, a Post-suspension version, looking at Ali's punch output against George Foreman is a good barometer of what Ali might look like against another bigger fighter who is stalking him and throwing big punches:

R1 -- 35 punches
R2 -- 30
R3 -- 35
R4 -- 31
R5 -- 33
R6 -- 36
R7 -- 23
R8 -- 29 (fight stopped with 10 seconds left in the round)

So, let's say we could combine these two sets of data and come up with an approximation of what Ali's punch output would be against Vitali Klitschko. Take a younger, fresher Ali and put him against a much larger man who would be pressuring him.

Let's say Ali averages between 45-50 punches per round, being a bit generous perhaps.

That's very good, especially for a heavyweight.

Except there's one problem.

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.

At 31 years old, he averaged 70+ punches per round against Lewis. Despite the cuts.

At 37 years old, he averaged more than 70 punches per round against Sam Peter.

At 38 years old, he averaged more than 80 punches per round against Arreola.

At 40 years old -- far beyond his prime -- he still averaged 60 punches per round against Adamek.

I think you get the idea.

Vitali Klitschko is an anomaly. He's a Next Generation-level athlete. The reason why he has never trailed on the scorecards at the end of any of his 45 professional fights is not an accident.

He doesn't have to fight like The Terminator. He can fight off the back foot. He can move when he needs to (see Arreola fight). He can brawl. He is extremely accurate (as was Ali). He is a deadly counterpuncher. He can throw arm punches in bunches, or he can sit down on his punches and hurt you (as he did with Lewis).

Simply put, Vitali can fight any style he chooses and be successful.

Ali is one of the greatest fighters who ever lived. However, he was dropped by fighters who weighed 185 lbs (Cooper), 191 lbs (Banks) and 205 pounds (Frazier). Cooper and Banks were against Pre-suspension Ali as well.

If you don't think a 245 pound giant who seriously hurt Lennox Lewis could put Ali down, well...I would say you know little about boxing or physics. Vitali Klitschko has the highest KO % in heavyweight history (88.9%). Again, not an accident.

I'm not saying Klitschko knocks Ali out. He probably doesn't. But because of his workrate and the fact that he would be the aggressor, I see him winning the fight along the lines of 7-5 rounds or 8-4 rounds. I'm not saying Ali couldn't ever beat him. He could. But
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.

I understand why Dundee said what he said here. He's tied to Ali. As in, if Ali's legacy is diminished, Dundee's legacy is also diminished. He had to say what he said.

Vitali Klitschko will never be recognized for what he is amongst most fans and even boxing experts. The Adamek fight helped reveal the truth, and a Haye fight would help as well. But most people won't ever "get it" because they either choose not to get it or they don't understand the sport well enough to know what they're seeing.

Nevertheless, the truth is that
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. As good as Ali is, his size, relative lack of power and comparatively lower workrate would make a fight against Vitali Klitschko very hard for Ali to win.
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Geat post!!:good

saul_ir34 · Sep 13, 2011

I dont know man. Vitali is a monster. Even if you somehow manage to catch him clean so what you probably will not knock him down or hurt him.

The way he keeps his distance is great. He always is where he wants to be. In position to hit you and you miss him. Maybe the best footwork in the sport at the moment.

I am not sure a 215 pound guy can compete with a 250 guy who can box great.

sir axeman · Sep 13, 2011

I'd pick Ali in his younger years ala the Liston or Williams fights to get a UD over Vitali. But later on in his last couple of years he was fighting when he was done - a novice like Spinks shouldn't ever have got close to a win vs Ali - but Ali was shot then. This Ali would lose easily to Vitali. The prime Ali for me takes a UD. I dont see Ali stopping Vitali - he wasnt a noted puncher and couldnt put lots of far lesser fighters away than Vitali.

The Clown · Sep 13, 2011

dave-slave said: ↑

From Huffington post.

Vitali is great -- the best out there today but Muhammad would have beaten him by just fighting the way he normally did. Muhammad would have moved in and out, side to side, popped him with the jab and fast combinations. Vitali relies on the jab but Muhammad would have smothered his jab and hit him with his own -- time and again." When pressed as to how Ali would have coped with Vitali's thunderous right hand Dundee insisted, "Really, Vitali would never hit him with that right. He was too fast and would have easily seen the right coming. Muhammad's opponents could never believe how quick his reflexes were. No disrespect but Vitali would have been shocked."
Dundee continued, "It would have been an ugly fight. Muhammad would have won an easy decision or maybe the ref would have stopped it as Vitali got banged up. And this is not to take anything away from Vitali. He is special. But it is just a matter of styles and Muhammad had the style to deal with Vitali."
Dundee observed that as good as Vitali is, "He could be better. He pulls back when he jabs and he doesn't throw enough uppercuts even though all the guys he fights lean in."One of the greatest trainers in history also suggested, "Vitali should develop a left hook. It is just jab, jab, right hand. He needs a good hook." And by the way, as the Henry Cooper, Sonny Banks, and Frazier fights attest, it was the left hook that Ali was always most vulnerable to.
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Ali never fought someone with the parameters and unorthodox style like vitali. Vitali is no Ernie Terrell.

I say ali must come in with his absolute prime A-game to win a close decision.

The Rope-A-Dope-Ali from 1974-1978 would lose a wide decision to Klitschko.

The prime Ali could keep it close, but he would have deep trouble at times.

Remember we talk not about renommee we talk about H2H and H2H Vitali is maybe the hardest to beat-HW ever.

Arcane · Sep 13, 2011

One win over Adamek and people are sold on the idea Vitali would beat Ali.

jacklondon · Sep 17, 2011

Dundee should have been banned from boxing for his dirty tricks with the boxing gloves, like in Henry Cooper 1, and why haven't the record books been corrected to show that Cooper won that first fight, just one of many that Clay-Ali "won" by cheating.

And don't make me laugh about Clay and Dr K. All Clay could do would be to try to run away for a few rounds before he got caught. It would be like a Gaylord Gaye replay.

Clay-Ali couldn't even beat small guys weighing only in the 180's, like Jones and Cooper and even Alonzo freakin Johnson without cheating.

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Angelo Dundee -"Vitali is special" but says Ali would beat him.

Bubby Boxing Junkie Full Member

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