When I think of great middleweights, the names of Robinson, Monzon, Hagler, Greb (resume), Walker, Hopkins and even Jones from a H2H stand point come to mind...but what about Fitzsimmons and Langford? Where and how do they fit into the middleweight pantheon? In an article by Mike Casey, "Not Fade Away: The genious of Fitz must shine on." An old time boxing reporter Robert Edgren, was commenting on Mickey Walker following his victory in 1929 over Ace Hudkins. Edgren thought well enough of Walker that he was compared to any great middleweight you would care to name including Ketchel, Papke, Greb, and Ryan...One omision was noted...Fitzsimmons! Why? "It's cruel to compare other middleweights to Fitzsimmons, because no other middleweight that ever lived could have had a chance against Bob!" "Fitz was a man with a peculiar fighting build. He was six feet tall, had very wide shoulders, long arms, a light body, and a small waist, with thin legs. He was the hardest hitter in the world-even among heavyweights when he was still a middleweight. There was only one Fitzsimmons, and I don't expect to see another." Edgren stated. Do the films of Fitzsimmons do him justice? It looks as if he would be very vulnerable against many great middleweights quite frankly...especially mobile greats who would not be stationary targets. But what of the documented details of Fitz's fights with Jeffries, Ruhlin and Sharkey? In the return against Jeffries, Fitz lost in the eighth round, however, during the fight, Fitz opened deep cuts over both eyes, broke his nose, and opened cuts on both cheeks to the bone...it was a bloodbath. Ruhlin? Fitz hit him under the heart for a sixth round KO...Ruhlin stated he had difficulty breathing for two weeks. Would another middleweight be capable of doing this? What is the take on Sam Langford as a middleweight? In the films of Langford against Lang and Flynn II, Sam looks freakishly strong and confident. It appears Sam does not find any objections in being hit at times to get closer, or to set up a finish. Just the longevity of the man is simply unbelievable. On youtube the rematch with Flynn has had the speed corrected. The fight was scheduled for forty five rounds! In the eight Langford demonstrated speed and power in connecting with a right hook, left hook combination dropping Flynn on his face. Langford also exhibited the ability to shift his weight (from a squared stance) into each blow. He owns a victory over argueably a top ten middleweight in Tiger Flowers, who engaged Greb three times, winning twice. (Towards the end of Greb's career.)...and also a second round kayo over the vicious Kid Norfolk. Would another middleweight have the durability and speed to evade Langford? I cannot see another middleweight stopping him! How do these two compare with the other middleweight greats? Are they remarkable fighters who would have had a chance of beating any 160 lber from any era? Or are they ancient dinosaurs from a completely different time that could not compete in a more modern day setting? Opinions please.
Langford was considered at his best at LHW, so I don't rate him at MW to be honest. In era by era terms, Fitzsimmons rates up there, though he also accomplished quite a bit at other classes, so he's hard to rate at just one weight class as well.
Bare with me Pea, I know that both really aren't considered middleweights. But both did fight around the weight at one time. Considering that, how do they stack up against the greats?
I think it is fair to pick Langford over every Middle who has ever lived. Cases can be made. With Fitzsimmons the case is more complex. Under his own ruleset, I think you'd struggle to find a 160lb man that could beat Fitz. Is this the kind of thing you mean?
Yes. But I was thinking more of a modern day ruleset. But that's not really being fair to these two. Quite frankly I'm having trouble attempting to compare Langford and Fitz against moderns (but having fun with it) and I wanted to try to see what the board thought. Generally speaking, I'll go with the modern...BUT these two are scary propositions for 160lbs, considering their documented power. They both appear to be easily hittable by fighter, especially a great fighter...like a robinson, Monzon, or a Burley. In the article I was reading it went on to say Tracy Callis picked fitz over Ray Robinson..."Fitz would be able to handle Robinson's power, but I don't think Ray would be able to handle Fitz's power." Hank Kaplan picks the more modern fighters generally speaking the article also stated. I thought it would be fun if the board had a go on it.:good
In my opinion, Fitzsimmons would win to a lot of greats over 12 rounds on points. He would win a lot of those fights by KO though. He could make a very good living against the top men by getting hit in my opinion. No MW would stop him and he'd be LIVE for every second he was in. Langford could compete with any of these guys under 2008 rules. Ideally, I'd like to see fantasy matches "fought" at a middling ruleset. So a Langford slaughter of Joe Calzaghe would be fought under 1940's rules for example.