:thumbsup There's 1-2 places in it tops either way. I'd probably edge towards Pep. Both make my top 10.
As Burt says, Leonard hit much harder than Pep. Not taking anything away from Pep (or Locche or Benitez, etc.), but it's easier to be a defensive master when you aren't selling out completely to try to knock your opponent out. It's close, but I'd bo with Leonard. He beat a ton of Hall of Famers in a very deep era.
Leonard may have "Hit harder" Than Pep, but Pep more than made up for it by becoming one of the best combination punchers of all time, certainly better than Leonard.
:yep When Leonard beat Britton in a "newspaper" decision, leonard was only at a 3lb disadvantage. When Pep fought Willie Joyce and nearly shut him out, Pep was at a 7lb disadvantage. I could argue Willie Joyce was better p4p than Jack Britton. Joyce in 1944 alone(the year pep beat him), defeated Ike Williams and Henry Armstrong.
He was at a 6 pound disadvantage in his prior win over Britton. No you couldn't. Joyce was never more than a good, solid contender in his career, while Britton was an ATG HOFer and longtime multi-time world titleholder. That's easily matched by Britton's wins over Ted "Kid" Lewis and Mickey Walker.
I would rate Ike Williams and Henry Armstrong over Ted Kid Lewis and Mickey Walker anyday of the week. Disagree. Joyce was a very good fighter, possibly great fighter. I would rate Joyce a top 35 lightweight of all time. I would rate Britton as a great fighter, but nowhere near as great as you rate him(and all the other white 1920s fighters your adore). I think their pretty close, especially h2h. in that fight, britton weighed 139lb. Not exactly a full fledge welterweight in there, eh? Britton was hardly a junior welterweight at the time.
O ya? Armstrong was the # 1 rated Welterweight contender in the world in 1944. Armstrong knocked out Bummy Davis and Mike Belloise that year. A big win for Willie Joyce, despite Armstrong being past it.
Why? No he wasn't. He didn't have the consistency or success at the top level (particularly in title shots) to have a claim to genuine greatness. Which would still put him well below where Britton rates as a WW. So now you just shamelessly admit to putting down fighters strictly for being white and from the '20s? :roll: And by your standards, Leonard was not a full fledged LW either. I don't see what this has to do with anything though.
No. All I said was you happen to love 1920s fighers, and typically rate the white 1920s fighters very highly, while usually arguing against the black murders row. I have no problem with white fighters. I rate Harry Greb, Willie Pep, Jake Lamotta, and Rocky Marciano very highly. All are White. I view Ike Williams as a top 3 lightweight of all time. Williams is better p4p than Lewis. Armstrong was past his best, but he was the # 1 welterweight contender in the world. Walker was green at the time, and losing a lot. I think this cancels eachother out. I wouldn't put Britton in my top 20 welterweights of all time list. Would you? You made a big deal about Leonard beating a "ATG" a weight class higher than him..but Britton at 139lb, was not a fully grown welterweight.
But now you're using inconsistent standards to assess each man's wins. You rate Joyce's wins over Williams based on what Williams would be at the height of his career, but you rate Britton's win over Walker based on what Walker was at the time of the win. Yes. So what? He still was an ATG at WW. What he happens to weigh for any of his fights doesn't change how accomplished/efficient he was in that weight class, both before and after losing to Leonard.
Ike Williams beat Sammy Angott 2x, Freddie Dawson, and Slugger White, right around the time Willie Joyce beat him. Who did Walker beat around 1921 that compares to a Sammy Angott?
Leonard was going to fight Walker in 1924, but cracked his thumb, then retired at 28 because his mother wanted him to. Leonard-Walker would have been huge in assessing the legacies of both. How far could Benny have gone? He was younger than Duran was in Montreal. If he hadn't gotten himself disqualified against Britton seemingly on purpose, then Mickey would have had to go through him to get the WW crown. Walker needed two attempts to beat Britton. Could he have gotten by Leonard on a first try at just 22 years of age? With Pep, we're left to wonder what might have been without that plane crash.
So, he was still a good contender but he wasn´t the Henry Armstrong we talk about when we talk about Henry Armstrong. Know what I mean?