Dark ages References to Italian boxing 1200-1800 [Name Unknown] "A Butcher" Boxing references pre-1700's books Black Period Revised Prologue William Stevens I George Meggs "The Collier" Part I George Millsom "The Baker" Tom Juchua "Disher" William Darts "The Dyer" William Stevens "The Nailer" Part II George MIllsom "The Baker" Part II Epilogue English Tom Allen "Pipes" and Bill Gretting George Taylor Jack Broughton Jack Slack William Stevens George Meggs George Millsom Tom Juchau William Darts Tom Lyons Peter Corcoran Harry Sellars Duggan Fearns Jack Harris Big Ben Daniel Mendoza Tom Cribb A comparison of accounts of the first battle between Tom Cribb and Tom Molineaux Jack Carter (Massa Kendrick) Sam Hurst American Tom Molineaux Tom Hyer John J Dwyer Paddy Ryan Irish Ned James LIVES AND BATTLES of the IRISH CHAMPIONS I also have some non bareknuckle research threads here Some good stuff in this thread for late 1700's
I was backing up a lot of the stuff I posted, so I thought I'd organise my threads into a meta-thread for future reference, especially because the links in the Ancient to Present thread are dead with Glaukos being banned. These threads are of varying quality, and effort, I intend to revist most of them.
This seems like as good as any place to attempt to reconstruct the early English lineage. There's a good case this is an act of futility, as we can't possibly know all the bouts that went unrecorded, and how many records we are yet to find. However I think a revised lineage that's likely wrong, but open to be corrected with new information is better than just sticking with the traditional lineage when we have information tha contradicts it. 1681 An unnamed butcher is described as being considered the best Boxer in England (Protestant Mercury December 28, 1681 (page 4)) 1730 Daily Journal October 19, an advert for a match between Pipes and Broughton includes "Broughton, by beating Gretton, who has for several Years reign’d Champion." This is still quite tenuous however, and lacks a specific date. Whenever he became it, Jack Broughton was the Champion, I don't think there's any disputing it, from multiple sources including Godfrey's writing. While Modern Manhood by Henry Lemoine did claim he lost to George Taylor at some point, (which would have to be between 1747 and 1750) without more information or confirmation, I'm not ready to accept it. 1750 April Jack Slack defeats Jack Broughton (supported by newspapers and traditional lineage such as from pugilistica) 1751 Feb George Taylor defeats Jack Slack to win the Championship, and announces his retirement (1751-02-16 The Ipswich Journal (page 1)) (a caveat is a match between Smallwood and Taylor is advertised soon after) 1751-1755 Jack Slack has many battles, and possibly regains the Championship, despite a 1752 loss to Goddard, before seemingly going inactive. Also from the high regard he is held in in Boxing Reviewed, and that Stevens issued a challenge to him (1760-05-17 The Newcastle Courant (page 1)) (see Jack Slack) 1760 William Stevens defeats Jack Slack twice, first in May, it appears through this and other battles he became Champion of England based on the reports of his fight with George Meggs. 1761 March George Meggs defeats William Stevens (Oxford Journal - Saturday 07 March 1761 "Maggs. . .tore the Laurels from the Brow of the most powerful Nailor, and gained to himself, the Honour of being the Champion amoungst the Broughtonians." Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Thursday 05 March 1761 "[Maggs] stript him of all Laurels he had acquired by his many former Victories.") 1763 George Millsom defeats George Meggs to win the Championship. The tradional viewpoint in Pancratia, Boxiana, and Pugilistica says 1762, however newspaper reports have Millsom beating Parss Meggs in 1763 and then challenging George Meggs, implying this contest would have take place in 1763. 1765 August Tom Juchau defeats George Millsom to win the Championship, this is the tradional viewpoint in Pancratia, Boxiana, and Pugilistica, but I'm yet to find contemporary sources to back this up 1766 may William Darts defeats Tom Juchau to win the Championship, this is the tradional viewpoint in Pancratia, Boxiana, and Pugilistica, but I'm yet to find contemporary sources to back this up 1767 August William Stevens defeats William Darts (Oxford Journal - Saturday 22 August 1767) 1769 June George Millsom defeats William Stevens. George Meggs is now the "present hero of England" (Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Thursday 22 June 1769), however Stevens is said to have a similar title "Hero in the Boxing Exercise" after losing to Meggs I'm yet to find any later matches with George Millsom
Short version A time including 1681 [Name Unknown] "A Butcher" ??? Before 1730 John Gretton may have been champion for several years Possibly from 1730 or before -1750 April Jack Broughton from beating Gretton and many others, firmly establishing himself as champion 1750 April Jack Slack from beating Broughton 1751 Feb George Taylor from beating Slack (Retires immediately) 1752 Goddard also defeats Jack Slack 1753-1760 Jack Slack (seemingly) 1760 William Stevens from beating Jack Slack twice, and other victories 1761 March George Meggs from beating William Stevens 1763 George Millsom from beating George Meggs 1765 August Tom Juchau from beating George Millsom 1766 May William Darts beats Tom Juchau 1767 August William Stevens defeats William Darts 1769 June George Millsom defeats William Stevens This is ofcourse based off incomplete information, and is subject to revision. However atleast having a version made to update is easier than starting from sratch Edit: Changed 1762 George Millsom from beating George Meggs to 1763 based off another find. Edit: Added Goddard's victory over Slack which I somehow missed.
How much of this is real and how much is just based speculation or single sources? This could cause me to have to rewrite a significant portion of my book. Actually to hell with it I'll just keep putting out new editions. Thank's for your tireless work Bit. Also google Daniel Mendoza by Lewis Edwards. Found a great article written by the Jewish historical society of England.
Honestly, it's pretty speculationay, the biggest issue is probably the incompleteness. Like I said my attitude was that probably wrong is better than definitely wrong. It was my best attempt, but I'd honestly be more surprised if some of it didn't turn out to be wrong. Part of the reason I did it was to try and bait some others into looking into or thinking about it, or maybe giving additional info. There is two different reports of Stevens beating Darts, and another newspaper saying the fight will happen, so I think there can be little doubt about that one. Bath Chronicle and Weekly Gazette - Thursday 06 August 1767 A boxing match for several considerable sums of money, is to be fought one day this week, between Stevens the nailer and Dart the dyer, at Colnbrook, if not prevented by the magistrates. Oxford Journal - Saturday 22 August 1767 Yesterday a Battle was fought between Stephens the Nailor and Dart the Dyer, in a Booth which was erected for that purpose in four Hours, at a Plac called Pyle, near Colnbrook, for a considerable Sum of Money : Notwithstanding the Nailor was knocked down the first Blow, the Dyer gaver out in a few Minutes, and so the Hum ended. Leeds Intelligencer - Tuesday 25 August 1767 Yesterday a severe battle was fought at Colnbrook, between the noted Dyer and the Naylor, on which upwards of 1000l. were depending. The odds, at first, were six to one in favour of the Dyer; but, after a contest of fifteen minutes, the Naylor came off conqueror, by which the knowing-ones were greatly taken in. I say a bit more on the lineage after Slack in these threads https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/black-period-revised-prologue.619807/ Senya found the ones on Taylor beating Slack 1751-02-09 The Ipswich Journal (page 3) Friday Post. London, Thursday, February 7. 16. We hear that the Boxing Theatre in Tyburn Road will soon be suppressed by the Bench of Justices, as it is thought to contribute to the Nursery of a great Number of loose, idle, and disorderly People. Wh. Ev. Post. 17. Yesterday was decided the Boxing-Match between Taylor and Slack, which lasted about 15 Minutes, and was ended in favour of Taylor, at a Time when it was thought that Slack would have beat him, the Odds being Ten to One of it; but it was said that in the last Fall he hurt his Leg, and therefore gave out. 1751-02-16 The Ipswich Journal (page 1) Country News. 1. Norwich, Feb. 9. At Broughton's Amphitheatre, on Wednesday last, after the most bloody Battle that ever was seen for the time it lasted, which was just sixteen Minutes, George Taylor beat his Antagonist John Slack, from this City. The House was full before Nine, and the Fight over by Ten o'Clock. The Odds before setting to were Two to One on Taylor. For the first six Minutes there never was faster Fighting, or more terrible Blows and Falls, but Slack had the worst of it, and the Odds were greater against him than at the Beginning; but in the next five Minutes, which were employed in hard Boxing, without a Fall, the Battle was brought even, and both of them seemed equally tired, and out of Wind; from this time, Slack's straight Blows began to take Place, and he had greatly the Advantage, both in Fighting and Falls, insomuch that the Odds were at 14 Minutes more in his Favour than they had ever been against him; 'till unluckily, when it was impossible for him to have lost but by an Accident, by a Twist of his Leg to disengage himself from his Adversary's Lock, and in which he succeeded so as to give the Fall, he had the Misfortune to put out his Knee, which lost him almost a certain Victory. Taylor, who may be truly said, to have won this Battle out of the Fire, has declared he will appear no more on the Stage, so that our Countryman is now the first Fighting Man in England. There was above 200l. in the boxes, besides Tickets. Slack regaining the title is largely speculation, based on the high regard he's held in, and Stevens challenging him. Gretton then Broughton is based on this, and also Godfrey saying that Taylor challenging Broughton, who he calls the standing Champion IIRC, while Taylor was not even 20. But it is possible that Broughton beat Gretton after he lost the title to someone else, maybe Pipes. (I'm pretty sure Gretton = Gretting). @GlaukosTheHammer has mentioned Gretton too and listed him as a champion, so it'd be interesting to have his input. Daily Journal October 19, 1730 At Mr. Stoke’s Amphitheatre, In Islington Road, this present Monday, being the 19th Instant, Will be the compleatest Trial of Manhood that has been for some Years past, between the two famous Champoins, John Broughton, who won the Coat and Crest of Liberty the 1st of August last, and Tho. Allen, Pipe-Maker, for several considerable Sums of Money. They fight wet or dry, and he that is not ready to mount the Stage with his Second, at 4 o’cClock, forfeits 10l. so those that intend to have good Places, are desired not to delay their coming. There need to Encomium to recommend those Champion to the Publick, they having an establish’d Character; Pipes, by beating Burch of Harrow on the Hill, and the Lincolnshire Drover, who beat the Italian Boxer. Broughton, by beating Gretton, who has for several Years reign’d Champion. Attendance will be given at 12 o’Clock, with suitable Accommodation for the Reception of the Quality and others. It'll be worth asking @Senya13 about this stuff, as he's been in the game longer than me, I think he said the lineage as is currently known probably came from Pancratia.
Smokin' Bert Cooper KO1 over modern bare knuckle champion, Joe Savage. 42-0 (42 KOs) End of thread. This content is protected
