Bert Sugar's 100 Greatest Fighters(What Do You Think?)

I don't think all those guys deserve a spot on the list but definitely Klaus, Lavigne, Ambers, Moran, Levinsky and Root

 

You can't put somebody on without taking somebody off. Who do you guys aren't qualified to be in the top 100? Even if you disagree with the list I think it would be hard to take that many names off.

 

Johnson and Dempsey in the top 10, Langford at 16, Fitz at 66?! I want whatever he's on

 

So you think Dempsey is rated higher than fighters like Ezzard Charles, Bob Fitzsimmons, Archie Moore, Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvin Hagler, Sam Langford, Pernell Whitaker, Joe Gans, Mickey Walker, Carlos Monzon, Jimmy Wilde, Eder Jofre, Charley Burley, Barney Ross, Roy Jones Jr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Packey McFarland, etc.

I'm also talking into account this list is old as now fighters like Pacquiao, Mayweather, would also sky rocket above Dempsey in rankings.

Put it this way Dempsey would struggle to make my top 10 Heavyweight list, let alone being amongst 10 greatest fighters of all time.

 

All fighters have problems with certain fighters. La Motta struggled terribly with Laurent Dauthuille for example.

As for Monzon, he was as sound technically as you get. Also, he was particularly good against come forward, aggressive fighters, watch his fights against Briscoe and Valdez to see it in action. As middleweight greats go I would have him at number 1. But that is just my opinion.

 

Muhammad Ali at 7th is a joke, way too low....the lowest I see him at is #2.

And Wilfredo Gomez so much lower than a guy he beat in Carlos Zarate? hmnn..

Otherwise I love the list.

 

Langford, Gans, Wilde, Fitzsimmons and maybe Walker could have a place over him. Saying that Dempsey doesn't crack top 10 heavyweights is ridiculous, you must not have read very much about him. Much more learned men than you and I who actually saw him at his best like Gene Tunney and Ray Arcel have said that he was one of the greats.

Miss me with that Mayweather-Pacquiao BS.

I don't necessarily agree with him at no. 9 either but you act as though that were some kind of sacrilege.

 

Clay is ranked too high.

 

yep

 

Dempsey cleaned out a pretty stacked HW division: Billy Miske, Bill Brennan, Fred Fulton, Carl Morris, Jim Flynn, Homer Smith, Gunboat Smith, Luis Firpo, Jess Willard and Tommy Gibbons. He had 200+ fights that were unrecorded.
The only argument against him is that he ducked Harry Wills and became lazy when he won the Championship. But you gotta put some respect on that mans name. There's boxing before Dempsey and there's boxing after him.

 

Been saying this for years. Cerdan would pulverize him, it would border on cruelty. Zale was tougher than Hagler and look what Cerdan did to him...

 

I know plenty about Dempsey and he isn't nowhere close to being one of the 10 greatest fighters of all time in H2H regard or regarding achievements. So yes him being rated as one of the best top 10 fighters of all time is outrageous.

What Mayweather, Pacquiao, BS ? stop being nostalgic Pacquiao and Mayweather's resume blow Dempsey's resume out of the water. And are better H2H fighters at their peak in their respected weightclasses than Dempsey is.

As for me not having Dempsey in top 10 Heavyweights of all time as ridiculous really ? i would say it's very debatable he makes a top 10 Heavyweight list, i don't really see how he's any more deserving than the fighters below.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes
Rocky Marciano
Mike Tyson
George Foreman
Joe Frazier
Wladimir Klitschko
Sonny Liston
Jack Johnson

Dempsey may sneak into a top 10 Heavyweight list in some people's opinions but he wouldn't on mine personally. And he certainly don't belong anywhere near the top 10 greatest fighters of all time.

 

Nostalgic? I didn't grow up in the 1910s so how can I be nostalgic? How do you know if they had better resumes if you've never even researched the guys that Dempsey fought? You can't compare two guys who fought in a soft, overprotected, overcommercialized era to a guy who got everything out the dirt. Ridiculous. You can't compare a guy who learnt boxing the hard way by getting his ass kicked to two guys who trained in air-conditioned gyms, you can't compare a guy with over 300 fights to two guys who don't even have half of that combined. The conditions of their careers were wildly, wildly different. You have to look at the whole of boxing history not just the guys that you remember and have colour footage on.
Thats the worst HW boxing top 10 list I've ever seen. The chinless Lennox Lewis, the overrated Tyson and the most boring Champion in boxing history Dr. Sleephammer. None of those guys ever beat an ATG in their primes. No Johnson, no Dempsey, no Jeffries? You have no business commenting on boxing. None whatsoever. What about Sullivan or Peter Jackson or James J. Corbett? You have to recognize pioneers of the sport. Telling the story of boxing without them is like telling the story of the Bible and leaving out Adam, boxing is a continuum.

 

Your assuming alot about me regarding what i do or don't know about Dempsey just because i disagree with your opinion. I've done plenty of research on Dempsey and i'm sorry i don't think Dempsey is a top 10 Heavyweight of all time, nor is he anywhere close to being a top 10 greatest fighter of all time.

As for not being nostalgic for older fighters ? when you come out with a comment like this ? i rest my case. Imagine saying Pacquiao is an overprotected fighter when he fought the likes of.......

Morales
Barrera
Marquez

And often fought much bigger men than him.

And yet Dempsey wasn't protected for flat out avoiding the most dangerous Heavyweight at that time in Harry Wills ? got you.

Again this comment speaks for itself "worst top 10 HW list of all time" yeah ok buddy. If you don't think Lewis, Tyson, don't belong in a top 10 Heavyweight list then your delusional. Wladimir didn't fight in a great era and his fights were boring, but he made 20+ title defences and has a strong argument to being in top 10 based on that.

I mentioned Jack Johnson.

Nope no Dempsey as i stated above.

Why should Jeffries, Jackson, Corbett, be above the likes of Tyson and Lewis i'm actually baffled ? certainly not in any categories regarding H2H, resume, or achievements.

I recognize them but it doesn't mean they belong in a top 10 Heavyweight list, because there's more deserving fighters with better achievements and resumes end of.

There is no nostalgia when ranking fighters.

 

I said the era as a whole is overprotected not Pacquiao himself. They fight once or twice a year, only box 12 rounds -- the bureaucracy and over-emphasis on safety pretty much killed off the fighting spirit.
Lets not forget about the performance enhancing drugs.
Dempsey fought Willard who weighed 60lbs more than him....
If Pacquaio was around in a solid era of fighters without PEDs, he would've never gotten farther than the Bantamweight division.

Dempsey introduced a vicious, aggressive style and disposition towards boxing that hadn't existed before he was the first guy to come out and try to destroy his opponents as quickly as possible. He was one of the first fighters to bob and weave.
Jeffries, Langford, Tunney, Ali, Louis, Tyson and many other said that he was one of the greatest that ever lived.

He drew the color line because he had to. Black Heavyweights were barred from challenging for the title because of Jack Johnson's antics. Joe Louis literally had to behave the opposite of the way Johnson behaved in order to even be considered for the title shot. As great as Johnson was, his behaviour really didn't help black heavyweights. And I did already say that Dempsey became lazy when he won the championship. His treatment of Harry Wills doesn't negate everything he did in his career.

What all time greats did Lewis or Tyson beat in their prime? Lewis the guy who got knocked out by two journeymen and beat all his best opposition when they were washed. And Tyson who quit every time things weren't going his way. One guy who was timid and scared to fight and another guy who was unidimensional and incapable of adapting to difficult situations.

"I mentioned Jack Johnson."
Liar. No you didn't. You just added him to save face. You turned your top 10 into a top 11 and thought I wouldn't notice it.

Because they actually beat All-time Greats. Jeffries beat Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey and Corbett all in their primes and completely obliterated the heavyweight division in an era where fighters fought 20+ rounds. Corbett was the man who brought sophistication to heavyweight boxing, he is literally one of the pioneers of the sport - one of the first 'scientific' fighters.

"There is no nostalgia when ranking fighters."
No your criterion is whether the footage is in colour or not.