Best five wins thread. Lineal / Ring Magazine heavyweight champions.

Joe Jeannette 198 lbs lost to Jeff Clark 164 lbs by NWS in round 6 of 6

• Date: 1912-09-02
• Location: Exposition Hall, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA
• Referee: Tom Bodkin

Clay Moyle has Jeannette weighing195lbs for his second fight with Langford 3rd-10-1913,with Sam a fat199lbs Jeannette beat him on points with the out of shape Langford being jabbed continuously and tiring over the stretch.

 

Martin could hit, if his contemporaries are to be believed.

We don't actually know how old Martin was, because there are conflicting accounts.

 

Who cares if Martin was 21, 23 or 19? He cleaned up black part of division until Johnson fight. He was the best black contender in the world until he lost to Johnson. This is what matters, not his age. He had plenty or experience at this point. Some people wanted him to fight Jeffries.

 

Promoter ,Tom McCarey offered Jeffries a substantial guarantee to defend against Martin,and,when McVey beat him an enhanced deal to defend against Sam, he ignored both offers.
Martin stopped Griffin ,Craig, Ferguson and Everett,among others.
Where is the basis for saying he could not hit?
Where is it indicated he was any more vulnerable to body shots than anyone else?

CBZ ." Martin was a strong and shifty competitor who carried a stiff punch ."
imo.There can only be one explanation of one posters consistent denigration of Martin's capabilities.The fact that he was a victim of Jack Johnson's.
So it's really a case of "same **** ,different day",which is why I declined to participate in voting .

 

I suggest you read Martin vs Johnson 1 fight report. They say Johnson who was not a puncher had more power than Martin did. That one was close, Johnson edged it over the 21 year old. Martin's KO% is 44.44

 

After a longer than normal debate the votes were all over the place for Johnson. One thing is clear those who felt his best wins were under 200 pounds and his pre title run was better than his title run title run are in the majority. Langford made the cut as Luftcrazy felt he was Johnson's best win. I'll count all votes however if someone makes a really questionable vote and other don't like it, I can skip that vote. In Sam's defense, he was only 20 and listed at 156 pounds. Sam claims he was in the 140's, caesura on late and scored a knockdown, but the press on hand doesn't report the knockdown.

Johnson's best five wins:

Denver Ed Martin
McVey
Burns
Jeffries
Langford

 

Johnson's list is decent, names are good but the circumstances of his wins aren't good.

 

That is the story. From 1908-1913 Johnson could have fought what would be viewed as the top 5 active ranked contenders at heavyweight. He didn't. At times he struggled in his title fights. He had two draws that cloud have gone the other way, and was floored and by his own admission hurt by Ketchel.

Denver Ed Martin - A Very chinny boxer who was frequently KO'd very early
McVey - Just a teenager
Burns - The lone top 5 win who could be considered in his prime, I felt he should rate higher, even if he was just 168 pounds and vey short.
Jeffries - Old. ( 35 ) 6 years out of the ring with no tune up fights. Completely washed up.
Langford - Estimated to be 20 years old, with a given weight of 156 pounds

I'm not saying his top 5 is the worst of the lot.

 

On we go to Jess Willard, a somewhat mis understood champion. There's some uncovered ground here. Fans tend to remember an old Willard taking a pounding by Dempsey and knocking out Jack Johnson, but in-between there is some interesting material. For example I think Willard's did a better job with Moran than Johnson did.

Willard's top 5, which I might revise if good information comes forward.

1. Johnson
2. Moran
3. Floyd Johnson ( Willard 41 ). Johnson fresh off a win over Fred Fulton, and Brennan.
4. Morris
5. Pelkey

 

Johnson lost controversial decisions against Luther McCarthy and Gunboat Smith.

If those had gone his way, his list looks somewhat better.

 

No doubt everybody will put the Johnson fight at #1, but what should be #2?

When the film of Willard Moran was shown, Moran was described as being the "the foremost challenger for the Heavyweight Boxing Championship of the World."

There were no rankings back then of course, but it sounds like Moran was seen as a top three contender.

That would give him a claim to the second spot on the list.

The other obvious choice would be Floyd Johnson, given Willards age at the time.

 

Jess Willard

1. Jack Johnson
2. Floyd Johnson
3. Frank Moran
4. Carl Morris
5. Arthur Pelkley

It was tough between Floyd Johnson and Frank Moran. Moran may have been the better fighter but he lost a lot of fights after Willard, indicating that his best days may have been behind him at that point.

Willard beating Floyd at that age is impressive, especially since FJ was coming off some good wins

 

I would suggest that Johnson J, Moran, and Johnson F are locks for being on the list somwhere.

Candidates for the remaining two slots are Morris, Pelkey, and Rodel.

 

True, but we aren't counting draws or losses. You could say two close to even results with the best " white hopes " solidified his standing. Johnson had a way of picking the losers to Smith and McCarty as his title opponents...Moran, and Flynn for example. And Willard himself

I do think the Moran fight shows Willard winning every round of the existing footage. Is there film of Morris vs anyone?