As a simple matter of curiosity, any reports of Dempsey's condition after Tunney I and II, just for shits n' giggles? He didn't look like he got that ****ed up to me(all though I suppose that's a matter of relativity in and of itself).
Did I not say I thought Riddick Bowe was a better fighter than Jess Willard. ? But Willard was a bullish man who was never DROPPED before,and I was RESPONDING to a poster claiming that Dempsey" didn't hit that hard as Willard took so many punches".Yes but today after the first 3 knockdowns Dempsey would have won by a tko. Some or most kos are tko's and not knockouts as witnessed by Louis battering Abe Simon for THIRTEEN rounds before rhe referee put a stop to the bout. So P, was Louis not that "good a puncher" also, as it took him 13 rounds for the ref to call a halt ? What's" good for the goose, is good for the gander ", I say...
I am a little surprized by the number of people picking Bowe here. It is hard to find a worse opponent for him in many ways. You don't beat Dempsey by fighting him on the inside, and the bigger you are the sooner it will rebound upon you. Dempsey was like a bacillus on the inside. If Bowe took what he had and tried to fight Dempsey at range he might have a chance, but once he starts to trade uppercuts on the inside, it is going to be survival of the smallest. This is not Evander Holyfield that he is trying that game against.
i can see a stylistic advantage in a sense but bowe was tremendous on the inside. and he COULD be fantastic on the outside when he needed to be. this is not evander holyfield true but neither is this fred fulton
My point is. Dempsey might have ducked Harry Wills, Harry Greb, the local coalman, dodged the draft, and kicked a small dog, but his infighting skills on screen are second to none. If Bowe trys to engage him in this way, he is going to loose, and his size is only going to make things worse.
Bowe over Jack Dempsey?...yeah,...and then you woke up...Bowe gets his ass handed to him...Dempsey by TKO...
that's true: his infighting can't be argued against. but my take on it is you have to look at WHO he exhibited the skills against. it's more of a question than a statement but who did he destroy on the inside? willard for certain and firpo. Two incredible performances against relatively limited fighters
Interesting match up Bowe was very good inside ,especially for a big man, but rather easy to hit ,not an ideal scenario when dealing with the Mauler .I will go with Dempsey ,but that may be just an old man's "rose coloured glasses" talking.
Out of interest have you sparred with a bigger man who's as good as you Mac? You have to work harder than him to keep the ****er off you, he can push you backwards, you have to work hard to close the distance, when your inside he can tire you out by leaning on you. Even though Dempsey is going to be the fitter man, he is going to get tired out doing the extra work, getting leaned on. Simply put he has a better chance earlier rather than later because Bowe is the man who's going to be aloud to take 'time off' Dempsey's main advantage though is that Bowe had the annoying habit of not bothering to get out the way of shots, so confident was he on getting the better of the exchange, which in nearly all his fights he did Dempsey's best strategy if I was advising him, would be to use lateral movement, use his speed to get in and out and look to build up a points lead and not look for the KO. Outboxing a bigger man is easier than outbrawling him. If he keeps a much better connect percentage the KO may come but he shouldn't be looking for it until Bowe weakens - if he does I'll play devil's advocate and stick up for Burt here because I usually troll him so only fair's fair. A fighter who is past prime isn't as durable because stamina and drive aren't what they once were, both are factors in withstanding the ability to take punishment However I'm still not sold on Dempsey's durability because we haven't seen his durability pitched against this type of arsenal and he has been ko'd before
When fighting a bigger man the trick is to go limp when they are close don't try and meet them in a strength battle , make them do all the work. I fought a guy 6'3' 16st that's 224lbs,thank Christ he wasn't any good but I soon found I could not physically move him,and my punches seemed to just be absorbed by his body mass. Willard was not great but he could hit and he could take it. The fact that Dempsey ,at 187lbs half killed the 245lbs Jess speaks volumes for his power. Dempsey had a sparring partner for a while, Big Ben Wray 7' 2'' around 300lbs Dempsey broke his jaw in two places with one punch, he was a mean no quarter man- killer. He sparred with a fringe heavyweight contender whose name escapes me ,but he turned out for a deaf mute football team, before it became known he could both hear ,and speak. Burt or Henry will probably know him. Anyway ,Dempsey hit him in the face so hard his gumshield became lodged in the roof of his mouth, and had to be prised out. I agree about the past prime, along with stamina ,and drive being eroded ,energy levels are not so easily and reliably called upon. As you remarked, Bowe was never elusive, and against Dempsey that is a recipe for disaster ,any one he could reach got hurt. I like Bowe ,at one time I thought him more talented than Lewis ,but he lacked the discipline to become a great fighter , he must have broke Eddie Futch's heart.
So PP I have been "trolled" all along and never realized it .What made young Dempsey so formidable was hit catlike speed and movements. His body was built for speed, and as i have posted before,his 185-90 pound frame was very deceptive. He had from the waist up the chest,biceps,and shoulders of a 210-15 pound heavyweight,with extroadinary deltoids, making him a powerful heavyweight with the lower movements of a welterweight. This great speed of foot and hands is what he lost forever when he at the age of 32,out of the ring for 3 years, screwing the cream of the silent screen sirens,foolishly took on a TOP boxer as the prime Gene Tunney. It bears saying again,with no tune-up bout, with no mentor Jack Kearns,whom he fired, and the recent suicide of his close brother, Jack Dempsey was indeed a shell of his once formidable prime. Sometimes outboxed, but never outfought. PP, my attorney will take up the matter of my being "trolled " by you.:hi:
Burt, I love your posts but Ali outboxes Louis ,ala Conn. And Dempsey takes out Joe inside 3 rds. No trolling ,I assure you.:good
Not to mention coordination and vision(especially for old school boxers who fought tons of boughts with thin cutting gloves), which let you take big ones you don't see, and make it harder to roll with them even if you do see them coming.