Carneras biggest wins before taking the title were over Striblingvia foul ,Godfrey via foull,both these fights have always been looked at dubiously, Ace Clark mand Bombo Chevalier are presumed to have gone into the tank,Uzcudun was well over weight,but lost on merit,Meen and Gorman were legit,as were Levinsky Campolo,and Mckorkindale,the SChaaf fight we know about,Larry gains conceding tons of weight had no difficulty outpointing Primo,did Sharkey dive ,he allways denied it,yet he goes down from a man who couldnt hurt Gains or Loughran,how do you prove it either way?,4 fights where the opponent definitely didnt have the cuffs on are against Baer ,Louis ,and the 2 against Leroy Haynes ,and we know the results of them,I cant call Primo a good champ ,he was probably a good man,certainly a brave one,the last photos of him allmost a skeleton returning to Sequals are very sad,at least he made some money out of wrestling.
This is a matter of probabilities and the convergence of variables. My statement that he didn't train for Clay stands as the hypothesis. It is evidenced by the subsequent points... Who would be more likely in this case? A desperate, shady ex-con like Liston surely wouldn't. I think it was more likely that Liston, not Willie Reddish was the Panama Lewis that night. Liston was the boss in that camp in the reports I've seen. Secondly, the trainer is usually in line with the fix... he could screw up if he is not a confederate. Clay had Liston missing even while blind. The only sensible thing is to hammer the body. Liston was getting hit because he was trying to catch up and getting in range. He wasn't waltzing in there which is what you would see a fall guy do until the round came. Perhaps.... but let's look at this now in toto: 1. Liston didn't train. 2. Liston tried to cheat his way to a win. 3. Liston had much facial damage. Unnecessary and academic abuse in a fix. 4. Liston quit on his stool. This anomalous. Usually the guy goes down at a punch or what appears to be a punch and takes the count. Even Lamotta didn't quit on his stool. Too suspicious. ...seems pretty clear when you look at it all. It comes together like a mystery solved, does it not?
Liston was seen crying on his way to the ring. I think he got the word in the dressing room (though there is anecdotale eveidence to the contrary - though this can be explained away, if you wish, by the fact that ne knew he would have to take a dive "someday", which seemed to be the case). There are three posibilities 1 - Liston gave the order to smear the gloves, the fight was on the level 2 - Liston did not give the order to smear the glove, it was done without his knowledge, the fight was fixed 3 - Something got into Ali's eyes by way of a mistake. One is a part of a unfixed fights reality, two and three is a part of the opposite reality. It's impossible to very which of the three is true. Liston seemed to favour body shots in a fight where he was chasing (even after the Ali fights this seems to be the case), for obvious reasons. But not in this fight until it is finally MORE likely that he will land to the head. Now he attacks the body. On it's own, nothing, but I noticed this years before I began to hear that this fight was under such serious suspicion at the time. It is interesting I think. Liston is in there with a wonderful fighter who was bound to hit him. I would certainly submit that this was Liston's LEAST aggressive performance on film...I include fights that exsist after the Ali fights in this assesment. The judges show a pretty even fight on the cards. In the last round you hear people say, over and over again, "Ali hit Liston at will." Indeed he did. I wonder if Liston is not awaiting the finishing blow in this round only for it not to come. No lessons, I would guess, in how to fall down (we see that next time out). It's my opinion that Liston is waiting to be knocked out for real, rather than preparing to take a dive. Briefly, outside the ring. Liston had no manager of note at this time. He'd given a LOT of shares of himself away. The men who really ran him, of course, were Frankie Carbo, also known as the Gray, the closest thing America had to a master criminal at this time and Blinky Palermo - longtime boxing man and probably Carbo's underboss (the details are a bit fuzzy). At the time of the first fight, Carbo was in custody and looking at life and Palermo - who might (probably not) have been interested enough in the game to protect Liston, was on the run, though free at the time of the first fight. You got the two top mobsters involved in boxing looking at time and they own Liston, lock and stock. At this time, two top mobsters in this situation dismantle everything they own where the area's of ownership may be considered grey. Ownership of a man would qualify. Liston represented a shitload of cash and a way to clean dirty money very quickly. Also, the rank and file mafia had been getting murdered for years, where Liston is concerned - NOBODY was betting on Liston's opponents. This last point can't be stressed enough. For me, a lot of this mafia stuff is the final peice of the puzzle for boxing people. It is pretty hard for me to imagine any other outcome considering the situation concerning the USA's most prominent mobsters and the odds involved.
McGrain. Liston's 'tears' may have been sweat. Or they have been fabricated by a story-teller. Who knows. Fact is, Ali always would have given Liston fits but what you saw as Liston not being busy enough is the same that I saw. You see it as a possible indication of a fix. I see a greater probability that it was lack of conditioning and an "oh ****" realization. Carbo did indeed own him and Carbo was at the height of his powers in the early to mid 1950s. I think it would be fairly risky to manipulate a HW fight as late as 1963 when the feds were already breathing down all of their well-tailored necks... here's why: Keep in mind the roof blew off of La Cosa Nostra in 1957 with the meeting of all the heads in Apalachia, NY. Before that, J. Edgar Hoover was denying the existence of the so-called Mafia. He foolishly made silly little bank robbers the prime targets of the FBI while Luciano and company set it all up in the early 1930s -totally in the shadows and totally unimpeded. That ended after you had a legion of old fat guys tossing stogies and running through the woods in three-piece suits while local police gave chase. Hoover amended his policy after that. Carbo just got out of the clink in ~60 and then was called before the Senate pleading the 5th about 20 times about boxing. The next year he and Palermo were charged with conspiracy and a host of other charges. "Mr. Gray" was not a fool. To fix a HW championship so soon after all that would be tantamount to sheer recklessness. He was under heavy scrutiny and so wasn't boxing.
I'll agree with you here. These things are possible and there's no point in insisting upon them. Again, I too feel Ali would always beat Liston, so I agree. Again, I have to agree with your view of the possible reality as being reasonable. This is well thought out and beautifully put, but here I DON'T agree. Here's why: You are entirely accurate when you say the pressure was on for these guys in relation to boxing. The party was over. We agree, however, that these men own Liston. Why boxing above all other sports? For these fixes? Because you can do it with one guy, and one guy only. Of course it was a risk. But the fight was worth millions. Possibly tens of millions. I was also a lovely, lovely way to square a lot of debts (the way out of town money moved on the fight is insane, bizzare even for a long odds heavyweight match up). In your reality Carbo says "Ah, I have this deal that is worth millions and millions and will keep the pike from my toes...but it's too risky even though i'm already going to prison." In my reality he says: "F*ck it, i'm done, and boxing is done for us too. Time to cash in an asset that will keep me and mine in clover forever regardless of what else happens. Keep the pike from my toes, too." I think a lot of what we've discussed is actually tilted closer to on the up than fix (though not by much) but not this. I been through it and through it and i just can't imagine this playing any other way for a man already up to his neck in it.
Can you give solid evidence he had a needle in his arm. This is not mentioned by most sources, even ones which are not fastidious about facts. Here is Nick Tosches from "The Devil and Sonny Liston"-- "I think he took too much dope and died. The fact that no gimmick was found means nothing. He could have shot up elsewhere." Well, this statement does not square with a needle actually being found in his arm. The autopsy revealed he died of natural causes. Heroin was in his house but the toxicology found only traces of codeine and morphine in his system (possible remnants of heroin use), but not in an amount sufficient to kill him. I see no reason for the pathologists to lie or, for that matter, mob murderers to go to such extremes as fixing an autopsy report. If he died of a heroin overdose, the autopsy report would have said so. The info on the autopsy report is from "The Devil and Sonny Liston". I assume it is accurate.
My reality doesn't have the image of Carbo giving up millions out of fear of a place he was already going. My reality has Carbo being unable to much of anything -especially in boxing because the heat was on and not only he but others higher up would be at risk. Frankie Carbo was never made. This was because he was too close to Jews like Meyer Lansky who though working closely with Luciano and the rest, was not "in". I don't know if you if you know what "made" means but I'd bet you do -for those who don't, "made" means initiated into Cosa Nostra ("our thing" -the Italian mob). Carbo answered to the Lucchese family. Carbo ain't fixing a HW championship fight without the okay. And Cosa Nostra didn't survive to get rich by not being careful and being patient. $$$ is a great motivator and so here's what I speculate: They waited til the rematch and cashed in on Liston and then retreated into the shadows. They knew that Liston didn't want to die so he would clam up no matter what. Liston knew Carbo and feared him. Carbo was a hitman for Murder, Inc in the 40s and 50s and actually was involved in the Bugsy Siegel hit in 47. This content is protected That's Bugsy with a bullet in the eye. Bye bye! Anyway, they waited for more time for the headlines to calm down in the wake of the McClellan Committee (61) and Valachi's betrayal (63). The first bout was in 64, the rematch was in 65. It wasn't as lucrative as throwing the first bout would have been, but it was easy way to lead the cash cow to the slaughter -Liston was old and too controversial by that point anyway. Did Sonny make any money for the dive? Nope. He did what he was told. There are reports that Liston trained like a demon for the rematch and looked good in camp. Dundee stopped by, heard "Night Train" watched Sonny train, got nervous and then Ali "got a hernia". The fight was postponed. Liston, frustrated and having lost momentum, started drinking and slacking again. Then the call came. Postscript: Liston was owned by powerful figures connected to the Lucchese family out of NY --he sure as hell didn't take a dive for fear of the Black Muslims. Pure myth. The Black Muslims feared Cosa Nostra as did everyone else except for the Vatican and the U.S. Government.
What a lovely post that was! Hooking up the printer as I speak. As far as the New York boxing scene is concerned, there was no-one more powerful than our man, but you (clearly) know that. You see someone else stepping in and straightening him up, explaining a harsh reality. I really don't, not in the situation he was in. He was a "willful" character in a short spot, as we know and Liston was his property. Whilst your concerns about a broader view are fair and informed ones you really feel you can head a fix of at the pass with them? As we've agreed, this can be arranged as a one man fix without the interferance of outsiders. This last is crucial. This isn't Palermo taking no for an answer from Sugar at a diner for the sake of peace - this is a fighter who has been handled in part by the mob from the beginning. One who may, or may not, have been exposed as a ****** at any time by his handlers. No conferences, no messages, one order worth Millions (and more good will than any other single act could generate at that time). You have given me something to think about though! I think I may have given you something to think about too? Put it this way; we're now swapping hypothesis about what ranking mafia men may or may not have done in a given situation. Not only do I feel this is the right place to find the answer, I also feel that this is a place where saying "yes" or "no" is a bit silly. The best you can come up with is a nice, shiney, "maybe".
Thanks for the nod, I always enjoy discussions like this with a man of knowledge. In the late 40s, Carbo was made the "boxing czar" at the same meeting in Havana where he was given the contract to whack Siegel. It was a demonstration of the trust that he had earned -whacking a power and gaining serious influence in a serious and legit racket. He was what's called an "earner" -he was "connected", and that meant that he had to kick up a % upstairs for his work like any soldier. You are right that this stuff is shadowy -he may not have needed an okay for most of his 'capers' (always loved that word), but I suspect that the heat would have made it unwise to go forward without approval for something as big as that. Here's why: if it went wrong and heads were going to roll, who's head is going to roll first? Palermo's. Carbo's next. Even before Sonny's because Sonny was to high profile.... they would wait on him and make it look like an accident. That's what happens, they're all for $$ but if it doesn't work and someone opens the door for the government to peer in by fault or no-fault -it doesn't matter. They go for a ride because the real powers will do anything to protect themselves....that's the business. So Palermo would in all likelihood not make a move without Carbo and Carbo would also seek approval. It may or may not spare them if the heat comes on too strong, but they would definitely be dead without approval. Like any business, you can't operate with total independence because of 'conflict of interest' issues.
I didn't know that, cheers. Firsly, I think you underestimate Carbo and where he was by that date. He may have been stuck mumbling at Robinson's cadillac post LaMotta VI but by this time Palermo was doing, basically, what Carbo used to do. Carbo had promoted himself. Secondly, it's important to understand Carbo's specific position at that time. If Carbo had flipped then it would be girlfirends no more for a lot of very important guys, and he was high profile enought that he wouldn't have had to do time at all (possibly). I''m sure you wouldn't dispute that a Liston dive was in the pipe and that that dive would be worth millions and probably millions more. I'd sumbit for your consideration this idea - in such a situation it's harder to take away the dive than it otherwise would have been. In the normal course of events, yes, it's possible (though unlikely) that he could have been overuled. But honour was from the lower level guys in this organisation. Anyone above captian had to be appeased when he went away. If the plan was in for Carbo to have to lift it it's my opinion that something very big would have to replace it. Yeah, i'd say that's a given.
Have you evidence of massive pay outs at betting offices to confirm your assertionthat "a dive would be worth millions",Ive allways understood that the odds didnt fluctuate to any marked degree,and that the bookies reported no heavy losses on the fight.
There are two main scoops here. The first one comes for the guys on the ground who, as they always did, took a massive raft of bets on Liston's opponents which there would be no pay out on. See what I mean? Grassroots Mafia sponsored/protected bookies (not the kind that keep financial records unfortunatley) had been losing money on Liston for a decade. Here was a lovely opportunity to win on him instead. The second would be betting on a sure thing. But no, I don't have any evidence that this happened. (Obviously it happened - I mean even if the fix wasn't in, some people would have bet on Ali, but you see what I mean). As you say, the odds held - if the word went out (i'm not 100% that it would have) odds would certainly hold off the back of that word. There was a lot of "out of town money" on Ali in the last few days in up front bookies. How these two facts would have interacted i'm not sure. It offered a grand chance to clean up dirty money, too. That end of things is to complicated for me and i've certainly never insisted upon it, but I feel it's worth a mention. I'll retract "millions" if you like, I may be overstating. Let's agree that if it happened, it would be worth a lot of money and good will to a few people.
Have you seen "Goodfellas"? Carbo was probably alot like Jimmy Conway (Deniro's character), who's actual name was Jimmy Burke if my memory is up and running. Burke was not made -he was 1/2 Irish, but he made alot of friends because he made alot of money that he paid in tribute. The Lufthansa heist, which was the biggest take til that time, was his brainchild. Millions were made. Millions upon millions. He had the kind of influence that we agree that Carbo had, but he wasn't exactly independent all the time -his stuff involved made guys and he knew too much, so he had to get approval for certain things. I find your scenerio as possible, but mine as likely. You see the reverse as more true. Fair enough! Nick Tosches ("The Devil and Sonny Liston") agrees with you, incidentally.