Boxers that were world class but never made world class money

I have always tried to give the most accurate information available, but this never seems to be enough for some.

the point being that these sources, that I always cite, ARE NOT MY WORDS, but rather Ring magazine, Boxing News and other top reporters from the period, I did NOT Say these things, I just gathered the facts, researched them and repeated them.

and lastly McVey do you honestly believe that family members or someone close is stupid enougfh to embark on such a lengthy and time consuming and costly project and not have or get or source out the neccessary material, don't be so naive.

a persons story is usually always told by someone once or twice removed, thos closet don't usually bother, for them it's just their mom or dad, or brother or sistewr.

it is 9 times out of 10, that it will be told by a grandchild or neice or nephew or someone in the community that knew the person or one day looked closer at that persons story.

and the smart ones among them make sure they've got as much material as possible, and dam near a 1000 reports is just that.

Thank you and enjoy!

 

I don't know.
If Gilroy was called up to fight Cerdan at late notice, he may have had trouble making the same weight he made in his previous fight. It's understandable.

 

Okay,lets take a look at these fighters you say were world class.


Ginger Sadd ,a busy boy 250 fights ,won 187 lost 45 kod 9 times.
Won British Eastern Area title.
Challenged for British title beaten by Jock McCvoy.,Never won a domestic national title, cant find him in any Ring world ratings as you stated. Verdict, domestic level fighter.

Jack Hyams,167 fights won 105 lost 47 kod 6times.
Won Southern Area lhvy title
Won Southern Area Middleweight title.
Never won a national title, never world ranked.
Verdict, a domestic level fighter.

Ray McIntyre 31 fights won 17 lost 12 kod 4 times. Fought for Canadian Middleweight title and lost,
Never won national title never world rated.
Verdict ,a domestic level fighter.

Glen Moody 83 fights. won 34 lost 43 kod 12 times.
Won Vacant Welsh LHVY title and Welsh Middleweight title .
Never won national titles, never world ranked.
Verdict,a domestic level fighter.

Ben Valentine 89 fights from Figii won 59 lost 26 kod 10 times.
Never contested any sort of titles.Never ranked anywhere.
Verdict, a domestic level fighter.

Dave McLeave .87 fights won 62 lost23 kod 16 times. Challenged for Southern Area Middle title, and lost.
Won Southern Area LHVY title.
Won British Welter weight title.
Won a national title, but at welter weight his two wins over Gilroy were at LHVY.
Never won European , never world ranked.
Verdict , a domestic level fighter.

Jim Berry.139 fights won79 lost 36 kod 16 times.
Challenged for Northern Area middleweight title but lost.
Lost an eliminator for British title .
Never won a national or area title.Never world ranked.
Verdict ,a domestic level fighter.


Pat O Connor 71 fights won 46 lost 19 kod 5 times .

Contested no titles of any kind.Never world ranked.
Verdict,a domestic level fighter.


Tommy Henderson 76 fights won 40 lost 30 kod 13 times.
Won vacant Scottish Area LHVY title
Never won British title , never won any other titles never world ranked. Verdict a domestic level fighter.

Jim Mount 40 fights won 15 lost 21 .
Fought for Scottish Area LHVY title twice lost both times.
Won Scottish Area Middleweight title. Never won a British title .
Never world ranked.
Verdict, a domestic level fighter.

Charlie Parkin 226 fights, won 119 lost 94 kod 55times!!!
Challenged for Northern Area Middleweight titletwice beaten both times.
Never won anyting, never ranked anywhere.
Verdict ,a domestic level fighter.

Charlie Knock 57 fights won 37 lost 20 kod 9 times. Never challenged for any titles of any sort.
Verdict ,a domestic level fighter.

Tommy Smith 15 fights won 7 lost 7 kod twice .

Won Scottish Middleweight title.

Never won British titles or any others , Never world ranked.
Verdict. a domestic level fighter.

Johnny Clements 60 fights won 26 lost 31 kod 16 times.
Challenged for Scottish Area Middleweight title and lost.
Never won a title of any sort.Never world ranked.

Verdict ,a domestic level fighter.

I have to tell you that you have ZERO credibility with me after looking at the records of the fighters you have been hyping as
"World classed by the Ring" " Britsh ranked " " Grouped among the worlds middleweights from all nations", [whatever that may mean].

NONE OF THOSE MEN WERE WORLD CLASS, MOST WERE NOT EVEN CONSIDERED WORTHY OF CONTESTING NATIONAL TITLES ,AND WHEN THEY DID STEP UP TO THE PLATE ,THEY LOST.

YOU MAY RANK YOUR GRANDFATHER WITH
LOU BROUILLARD, ARCHIE MOORE, NATE BOLDEN, COCOA KID, JOSE BASORA, FRED APOSTOLI ETC. BUT PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY BY THE REST OF US.

 

I remember when the Ring magazine used to rate "all" the world's active fighters in groups once a year.
Not just the top 10, which they've been doing monthly since about the 1930s.

You'd have the "A group" or "world class" group, which might be 20, 30, 40 or so fighters. This was when there was more activity in boxing, so it made sense.

Then the "B", "C" groups etc.
"B" would be fading fringe guys, prospects, decent journeymen, 10-round fighters etc.
"C" would be decent 6- or 8-round fighters.
"D" prelim guys and older cannon fodder-type opponents.

Or something like that.

 

Looking at the records of the fighters in my post above yours, and what they achieved in the way of titles, which group would you honestly put them in?

 

Thistle, the fights over , you got knocked out.

 

. That's right, those yearly ratings might be worth looking at. We're looking for March editions of the ring. Anyone got any?

 

I don't consider boxrec information by itself to tell me how good they were necessarily. I really haven't done any research, and you're just saying what's on boxrec.

If Ring magazine rated them as "world class", it is what it is.

It seems they at least rated Arthur "Ginger" Sadd among the world's top 10, at least one month :


[url]http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_Ring_Magazine%27s_Annual_Ratings:_1938[/url]


.... and remember most of the ratings are missing on that site. It only shows year end ratings, but they had ratings every month by that time.
So lots of fighters who were rated in the 'first 10' aren't there.

 

Yeah, Ring used to have some pretty good features like that.
I'd love to take a look at some of those ratings.

 

McVey your wrong my friend. I have given you the sources that you are Still IGNORING and still saying I said... NO!
the Ring, BN and other reporters.

You are still refusing to accept the Ring's Ratings - World Classed just outside the Top 10 - foreigners needed that National title or support to get in. There was'nt 50 slots available to Top 10 contenders through the 5 Sanctioning Bodies!

you are still ignoring and passing over reports & facts around certain fights and just carring on with rediculous statements like, "was he weight drain for Woodcock too(???) wtf.

you are Still Ignoring Bert's prowess at tackling the HWs fighters he shouldn't have been anywhere near and FORCED to fight just for proper paydays & contests - You have completely Ingnored the evaluation and applause Mills recieved for doing the same thing.

You have also (and you are smarter than this, but USING it to suit your argument), the number of fights cited for some of Gilroy's opponents are INCOMPLETE, most of these fighters fought 100 - 200 fights.

I know you know this, but hey I'll try use it to fool some of the less informed with some of these incomplete records...

your still Ignoring Gilroy was a 17 year Vetran when fighting the new sensation Don Cockell, who WAS No.1 L-HW in Britain at the time and did make World Class in 1950, but you were right about the top 10 it was 51.

You are still Ignoring other peoples Reports and statements like, Frank Butler, Norman Hurst, Jimmy Wilde, referee Eugene Henderson (do you know how many World Champion's hands and Greats he raised) and the great Charley Rose too.

you are still ignoring and misusing Domestic titles, it was the 2cd greatest belt in boxing at the time and the Top British fighters were NOT Domestic. That termonolgy came many years later with titles and Sanctioning bodies became disected and much less significant.

You are still trying to claim, I said, or my claim or thistle would have you believe, and just completely panning over reports, ignoring them and disregarding them altogether.

you Sir are DQ'd.

 

I repeat the burden of proof is on the man making these claims .

If you are not good enough to contest a national title, and in some cases , not even a regional one , how could you ever be considered worthy of a world ranking?

You're right about one thing , you haven't done any research..

 

You can say what you want it doesn't matter to me anymore because ,as I said you have zero credibility with me now.

 

You haven't done any research.
Everything you've put into this argument in just quickly gleaned from boxrec.

thistle1 has already stated that RING MAGAZINE classed those fighters as "world class".
He also has quoted boxing writers and reporters, such as Olver and Butler.

I admit I've done no research. But I did find Arthur (Ginger) Sadd on the RING magazine ratings, the same fighter you said of "Never won a domestic national title, cant find him in any Ring world ratings as you stated. "

 

I cant understand how you can argue this point Unforgiven? Its remarkably clear that Thistle has an agenda. Gilroy is being incredibly overrated by him.

 

He might be, but no one else has come forward with any claim of having done their own research.

thistle1 at least claims to have read a ton of reports and articles, and spoken to contemporaries etc. , and hasn't he written a book on the subject ?

Until someone goes beyond being a 'boxrec warrior' how can they seriously dismiss what he says ?