*** British Class of 2008 - Discussion Thread ***

Thanks to Jeff for prompting me to make this thread.... it's kinda come about with the recent decision by Frankie Gavin to switch trainers, and also the poor performance from Tony Jeffries at the weekend.

So - I think we are all agreed that the performances of the six lads to turn pro have been patchy, ranging from abysmal to at times sublime. Why has this happened? Why are they so inactive? What lessons can be learned for the future?

Starting at the lighter weights....

Joe Murray 11-0 (5) - featherweight (debut March 2009)
Trainer - Gallagher
Promoter - Hatton

Probably the lowest profile of the 2008 class, he's generally fought at 3-4 monthly intervals on cards in the Manchester area with a solitary appearance in the States.

Frankie Gavin 11-0 (8) - welterweight (debut February 2009)
Trainers - Farnell and ???
Promoter - Allegedly

Along with DeGale the fighter with the highest profile, being the 2007 world champion and for other reasons. Has had a few gaps in between fights to his frustration, generally on high profile/PPV events with Allegedly.

Billy Joe Saunders 9-0 (6) - middleweight (debut February 2009)
Trainer - Tibbs
Promoter - Allegedly

The youngest member of the 2008 squad, his pro career to date has been dogged by injuries and talk about his weight. Looks to have made good strides in recent months.

James DeGale 10-1 (8) - super middleweight (debut February 2009)
Trainer - McDonnell
Promoter - Allegedly

Gold medallist, high profile personality who divides opinion. As with Gavin and Saunders, has generally been restricted to appearances on PPV cards thus far. Suffered first loss in his last fight.

Tony Jeffries 9-0-1 (6) - light heavyweight (debut February 2009)
Trainers - Gallagher, Rimmer, Brooks
Promoters - Hobson, Maloney

Bronze medallist, big favourite in his native Sunderland. His career has been blighted by injuries and difficulties outside the ring, restricting him to just ten fights.

David Price 11-0 (9) - heavyweight (debut March 2009)
Trainer - Smith
Promoters - Hayemaker, Maloney

As with Jeffries, bronze medallist and a big favourite in Liverpool. Has suffered with some poor opponents and spells of inactivity. Appears to be making strides.

So - those are the names. Why isn't it happening? Here's my 2p....

Inactivity

The lads are only fighting four times a year. The number of Sky TV dates doesn't help, nor does the lack of co-operation between the promoters that have them. The Hatton's have recently started showing events online and have received good ratings, to a point where they are starting to consider pursuing this to keep their men active.

For Allegedly's lads, the deals that they are on are prohibitive, to the point where they can only fight a couple of times per year off PPV. With lots of other fighters that are also given TV dates this is a problem.

Lack of Motivation

The lads were amongst the best amateur fighters in the world, one holds a world title, one an olympic medal, and others have won medals at various important competitions.

So they turn pro to a damp squib, generally against a poor opponent that has come to spoil or take a dive, take your pick. From the likes of elite Cubans and Italians, to Latvian cab drivers.

Financially speaking, the wages they are on are ridiculous. I'm sure there are some among us who have been paid more than they were worth at a particular time and ended up slacking off, myself included.

Poor/Lack of Varied Opponents

Kinda linked to the lack of motivation, but when you are only on four times a year you need to have proper tests. It's fair to say that all of them have only had a couple each at best, and generally of a favourable style too. There's been little in the way of awkward questions being asked of them.

Everything in their Favour/Status

Again, only a fool would say they aren't being placed on a pedestal, despite having achieved very little in the pro ranks. Now, some people may argue that they deserve it after they've achieved success in the amateurs.

Other than that, we've seen favourable refereeing at times - in particular a ridiculous stoppage in a Gavin fight and the Bambula/Jeffries verdict.

The Switch From Amateur to Pro

The difference between the pro and amateur games is a lot greater than it was say, 20 years ago. In those days you'd bet your bottom dollar that a medallist would make a good pro, in fact until 2000 every Olympic gold medallist at super heavy won the world title.

Amateurs these days is fencing with gloves on, and the scoring mechanism that determines the outcome bears no relevance to the pros at all.

Solutions

Actually I'm going to bring up the five most successful British fighters of the past decade and use them as a comparison.

Hatton
Calzaghe
Froch
Haye
Khan

Of these, Khan was the only one that was a particularly celebrated amateur, despite them all acheiving some success in the unpaid ranks. None of the others were on £75-125k a fight, as Allegedly's Olympians are rumoured to pocket each time they fight, and Khan additionally had to bounce back from an embarrassing KO loss to get where he has.

Hatton and Calzaghe in particular had several fights off TV, at small hall shows etc and struggled to pay the bills. This no doubt increased their motivation to succeed and no doubt played an important part in them winning major fights on both sides of the pond.

In summary - no more ridiculous deals, fight more often, in more locations against more types of opponent.

The Class of 2008 are in danger of becoming the lost generation of British fighters, with an exciting batch of non-Olympians achieving great things in the sport with the potential to go further. At this stage only one of them has won the British title, which he promptly lost in his first defence.

Add to that a crop of Olympians fighting in their home games for the first time in nearly 70 years and you have a potentially harmful situation for them.

Any further thoughts, ridicule, STFU you **** etc welcome - in particular I'd welcome a view from Frankie, Tony and Arnie if they read.

:good

 

DeGale and Gavin will be the only ones to prosper at World Level

You're exactly right with regards to inactivity. I would have liked to see them coming close to 20 fights by now.

 

care to back the initial clame up. DeGale and Gavin have both shown allot of flaws, especially mentally, as well as Jeffires.

Price, Murray and Saunders the 3 fighters that have gone under the radar and are probably the lowest paid of the group have not really put a foot wrong so far in there pro careers.

 

class thread BB. Need to pop out but will respond fully later as i have only given it a glance.

 

****** ruins fighters, Groves will soon go onto the scrapheap after Frank refuses to let him fight more than twice a year against Lithuainian sheep farmers, culminating in a cash out against Ward.

 

That's because they havent really been put in with anybody yet. Dont get me wrong, I rate all three highly (BJS i really like NO HOMO), but until they r put in with half decent opp, we wont no what they are made of.

James Degale will win a world title for me. Frankie Gavin will follow suit, only at 140 tho.

 

Great thread Beeston :good

Down to the class of 08.

Its clear that these fighters are suffering from a lack of activity for starters more than anything. Some of this has been unavoidable Saunders has had documented hand injuries. Price was unlucky to sign with Hayemaker at the demise of Setanta.

Each fighter is different so I feel it is unfair to make blanket statement about all of them so I will try to run through each one and give them a fair appraisal.

Murray - Has generally gone about his business in an fairly impressive if not spectacular fashion since turning pro. He should probably have had more fights by now but if he starts stepping up in his next few fights I think he is on a decent trajectory but he needs some testing opposition. Look what Stephen Smith has done in 12 fights.

Gavin - Suffered from chronic inactivity considering most of his fights have finished early. Needed tests earlier on in his career. I think with all due respect and I say that as a fan people need to stop feeding his ego by saying he is the next big thing because at the moment he isn't. Maybe his big money contract has made him lazy maybe he has had a few off nights, maybe his personal situation hasn't been ideal maybe a mixture of the few or other things entirely. I think he needs to get on with his business with some real hard graft fight regualarly and testing opponents and stay in the gym and its time to justify his label as a top prospect.

BJS - Another who has suffered from inacitivity but mainly due to hand problems. He is coming along ok there is no rush for him he is young but needs to knuckle down find the right weight and get the learning fights in and progress up the domestic ranks.

Degale - A fighter that has been hyped to the rafters and has had a lot of pressure heaped upon him. He has fought decent oposition and progressed however it is clear he is not reaching his full potential. Whilst he lost the Groves fight it was his to lose he was complacent and his attitude needs to change. Possibly his training setup as well. He is capable of big things but needs to knuckle down and shutup.

Jeffries - A fighter that has had injuries but largely hs own fault. Despite a bronze medl he has failed to adapt to the pro ranks. His career so far he has had everything stacked his own way. Most of his fights have been in Sunderland despite him fighting poor oponents because of his ticket selling ability. He seems to have an attitude problem as if he is owed something. Needs to look at himself as opposed to everyone around him in regards to his shortcomings. Obviously has potential as he won Olympic bronze and packs a punch but can't seem to adapt to the pro game.

Price - Was unlucky with Hayemaker collapsing at the time of his signing. As well as this he has been in with some awful opponents. A fighter with a large fanbase and lots of potential he is only just coming into his own now. A fight with Mcdermott is a good yardstick as to his progression and domestic honours surely can't be far off. A fighter that isn't on a big contract but has kept his head down and is now coming good after a shaky start agaisnt appalling opposition. Possibly a good example for the rest of the class of 08?

 

very good thread i think you and wrimc have it spot on with your analysis'. i think price has shown good promise but we'll really see when he's in with big john. i think degale will bounce back and him and groves will both reach world-level, havent seen much of BJS but what i have seen i like (no homo). jeffries needs a total reboot with regards to the pros, watching him you'd never guess he was an olympic medallist. with regards to gavin i dont see a crisis yet, he clearly needs to be much more active and against tougher opponents, which isnt his fault, the next 12 months could be key, i'd like to see him out a fair few times, as busy as can be.

 

I think a massive problem is the expectations. What were people realistically expecting? Every one of them to blow away all before them in a blaze of glory? Quite a few if not most were likely to slip beneath those expectations just because the amateurs are not like the pros at the moment so the adjustment is large. There have been some mistakes made but I don't think its prudent to look at it from the perspective that everything that could have gone wrong has gone wrong. Simply put, people that are immensely talent can struggle in the pros.

Joe Murray - I think he's largely made decent if unspectacular progress so far. I'd say his opposition has been on the softer side, softer than needed the last couple of outings. He has looked impressive on occasions. I'll give them and him a B- so far.

Frankie Gavin - He's had his ups and downs for sure, last couple of performances especially have not been what he'd have wanted. But I still think its important to put that into perspective, he won them very easily. It's not exactly disaster time. The main frustration has just been the slow progress for somebody that is the most talented of the bunch, that needs to change in 2012 and we'll see what the new trainer brings. B-.

BJS - I can't really criticize the progress that much due to injuries and him being the least mature of those that turned pro. I think based on his recent performances he's ready to step up and I have to say his performance level has arguably been the most solid in terms of adapting stylistically. B.

DeGale - I think they should be applauded for how they brought DeGale along. They made the fights that mattered domestically so I don't see how anybody can complain with that. Where I do see cause for criticism is his trainer, without dwelling on it too much we all mentioned this as soon as he turned pro and that decision was made. DeGale himself was bad, then great, then got everybody against him, and then suffered lets remember a very close and debatable loss which isn't the end of the world in itself. We'll see how he comes back. B-

Tony Jefferies - Everything has gone wrong. F. For Fail.

David Price - I was critical of him and the way he was brought along initially but I think there has been cause for optimism in both aspects recently. He's stepped up his game and so has Maloney. Respect. B.

So overall I don't think we've seen the spectacular rise to the top in 3 years that some might have envisioned, but I don't think we've seen any carnage either except for Tony Jefferies. The rest all have the potential to kick on.

 

I'll reply in full to BB later, but I'm sick of reading that DeGale has fought decent opposition. Until he faced Smith he was feasting on guys who had no chance against him. Smith himself was as average as could be to the point where his ONLY advantage was experience.

He doesn't have the talent so many think he does. He's going nowhere of note.

And he's a ****.

 

I wonder how is your class of 2012 looking at the moment?

 

thats a good point, who are we expecting to come out of 2012 and turnover to great fanfare? stalker, g/k yafai, selby, mcgoldrick, joshua?

 

I know you have a hatred of Degale but for 11 fights he had a decent run of it. A run of Barr, Horton, Dilks and Smith is a decent 6th-9th run of fights capturing the British title in the process.

Even if you don't rate Smith he was an average domestic level operator. What sort of progression would have been preferable. I agree the Smith result was flattering but in 11 fights he has been in with some decent domestic level contenders and looks like he could progress onwards and upwards despite the Degale loss.

 

I think Stalker will turn pro might do well but he is a bit old will be 27-28 by the time he turns over but its not unheard of Nate Campbell and Antonio Tarver did it. Could be a decent prospect hard to tell.

The Yafai brothers are definitely ones to watch in the lower weights and could be looking at British titles with the lack of depth in those divisions.

Callum Smith will turn pro his brothers haven't done too badly depending on who you ask will follow in their footsteps

Anthony Ogogo Seen him in the Oympics adverts don't rate him too much as a top amateur but is obviously being pushed hard. Cross over appeal?

Anthony Joshua I think this one might be the next big thing. Clearly a big skilled genuine heavyweight. One to get behind already schooled Fury in sparring by Furys own admission. Could be the next Bruno?

 

I admit my bias against DeGale is strong, but the facts are clear - he has no style to speak of, he slaps with his punches, he's full of himself well out of keeping with his abilities or achievements, and he failed to deliver on what he said he's do.

And yet people talk about this potential?

I'm fine for people to say "for a prospect that wasn't bad" but the Dilks stoppage was appalling and Horton? Come on, he wasn't much off prospect level himself.

It's the over-excited baboons that still talk him up that **** me off. And DeGale himself. Unlike Naseem Hamed (who he models himself on with none of the wit or talent), he hasn't got an exciting style and his potential at world-level looks limited. Not much power, not much skill, poor footwork and slappy hands.

What a wonderful combination.