Canelo is the overall better more complete fighter...

What about their faces?? You seem to think Canelo's wasn't busted up like GGG's yet here is your proof that they look pretty much the same...

Why are you lying?? It doesn't make any sense...

Mark your words, He will get him in the rematch bla bla bla, you are just sounding like a butthurt fanboy who is upset that their boy didn't do what they were hoping to..

Just be thankful the Uncle Fishnets had a contingency plan in place in case GGG was actually GGG...

Now time to turn the computer off for a while..

 

He came on strong for the first 30 seconds in the championship rounds and couldn't sustain. He reverted back to back peddling. You don't win a round fighting 30 seconds if the other guy is fighting for the rest of the 2:30. I'm not claiming GGG won based on fluff and wishful thinking. It's just how it went down. If Nelo won I'd be the first to defend Alvarez if he got jobbed...in this Situation Nelo got a gift. The reason there's a lot of "guys like me" who thought GGG won is because he won the fight inside the ring. Forget about the draw and score cards. Just look at the overwhelming list of boxers, writers, analysts, athletes and fans who aren't clutching at straws....just scratching their heads wondering how the fight could have been scored a draw

This about sums it up.

OFFICIAL CARDS
Dave Moretti --------------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Don Trella -----------------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Adelaide Byrd -------------------------------> 118-110 Canelo

****************************************************

Teddy Atlas --------------------------------> 118-110 GGG
Unnamed boxing site ---------------------> 118-110 GGG
Jeff Powell (UK Daily Mail) ----------------> 118-111 GGG
Kelly Pavlik ---------------------------------> 117-111 GGG
Mookie Alexander (Bloody Elbow) --------> 117-111 GGG
Brian Campbell (CBS) ---------------------> 117-111 GGG
Jack Rathborn (Mirror UK) ----------------> 117-111 GGG
Harold Lederman (HBO) ------------------> 116-112 GGG
Dan Rafael (ESPN) ------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Al Bernstein -------------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Bryan Graham (Guardian UK) ------------> 116-112 GGG
Gareth Davies (UK Telegraph) -----------> 116-112 GGG
Steve Bunce (BoxNation) ----------------> 116-112 GGG
Tom Loeffler ------------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Sergio Martinez ---------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Amir Khan ---------------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Matthew Macklin --------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Steve Lillis (BoxNation) -------------------> 116-112 GGG
Bob Velin (USA Today) --------------------> 116-112 GGG
Lyle Fitzsimmons (CBS) -------------------> 116-112 GGG
Kevin McRae (Bleacher Report) -----------> 116-112 GGG
Shaun Al-Shatti (MMA Fighting) ----------> 116-112 GGG
Ryan Frederick (Wrestling Observer) ----> 116-112 GGG
Patrick Stumberg (MMA Mania) ----------> 116-112 GGG
Michael Woods (Ring) --------------------> 116-112 GGG
Nigel Collins (ESPN) ----------------------> 116-112 GGG
Cliff Rold ----------------------------------> 116-112 GGG
Bad Left Hook Writer #2 -----------------> 116-112 GGG
John A. MacDonald (Boxing Monthly) ---> 116-112 GGG
Ron Lewis (The Times) -------------------> 116-112 GGG
Kevin Mitchell (Guardian UK) ------------> 116-113 GGG
Josh Taylor --------------------------------> 116-113 GGG
Joshua Bautsi -----------------------------> 116-113 GGG
Matt Christie (Boxing News) -------------> 116-113 GGG
Barry Jones (BoxNation) -----------------> 116-113 GGG
Adam Booth -------------------------------> 116-114 GGG
Jordan Breen (Sherdog) ------------------> 115-112 GGG
Caleb Truax -------------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Kevin Iole (Yahoo) ------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Gary Locket -------------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Will Esco (Bad Left Hook) -----------------> 115-113 GGG
Phil Murphy (ESPN) -----------------------> 115-113 GGG
Mike Harris (SI) ---------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Paul Fontaine (Wrestling Observer) ------> 115-113 GGG
MMA Brazil ---------------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Sean Sheehan (Severe MMA) -------------> 115-113 GGG
Rob Tatum (Combat Press) ----------------> 115-113 GGG
Patrick Wyman (Bleacher Report) ---------> 115-113 GGG
Joel Diaz ------------------------------------> 115-113 GGG
Marc Livitz (SecondsOut) ------------------> 115-113 GGG
Stephen A. Smith (ESPN) -----------------> 115-113 GGG
Graham Houston (Boxing Monthly) -------> 115-113 GGG
Ed Robinson (Sky Sports) -----------------> 115-113 GGG
Tom Gray (Ring) ---------------------------> 115-114 GGG
Max Kellerman -----------------------------> Golovkin
Lennox Lewis ------------------------------> Golovkin
Shane Mosley ------------------------------> Golovkin
Austin Trout --------------------------------> Golovkin
Paulie Malignaggi --------------------------> Golovkin
Enzo Macarenelli ---------------------------> Golovkin
Scott Cardle --------------------------------> Golvokin
Terence Crawford ---------------------------> Golovkin
Reece Bellotti ------------------------------> Golvokin
Liam Smith ---------------------------------> Golovkin
Peter Quillin --------------------------------> Golovkin
Liam Williams ------------------------------> Golovkin
Ohara Davies -------------------------------> Golovkin
Luke Campbell -----------------------------> Golovkin
Dave Coldwell ------------------------------> Golovkin
Badou Jack ---------------------------------> Golovkin
Kevin Kelly (boxer) -------------------------> Golovkin
Steve Kim -----------------------------------> Golovkin
Doug Fischer --------------------------------> Golovkin
Ring TV guy (name?) ----------------------> Golvokin
Cornelius Bundrage ------------------------> Golovkin
Michael Montero ----------------------------> Golovkin
James Brady (SB Nation) ------------------> Golovkin
Joe Rogan (UFC) ----------------------------> Golovkin
Jim Rome (sports broadcaster) ------------> Golovkin
Kovalev -------------------------------------> Golvokin
Chavez Jr -----------------------------------> Golovkin
Danny Jacobs -------------------------------> Golovkin
Murat Gassiev ------------------------------> Golovkin
Johnny Nelson ------------------------------> Golovkin
Rosie Perez ---------------------------------> Golovkin
Lou DiBella ---------------------------------> Golovkin
Tony Jeffries --------------------------------> Golovkin
Martin Samuel (UK Daily Mail) -------------> Golovkin
Dave Allen ----------------------------------> Golovkin
Joseph Parker ------------------------------> Golovkin
Bernardo Osuna (ESPN Deportes) --------> 115-115 Draw
Lance Pugmire (LA Times) ----------------> 114-114 Draw
Chris Mannix (Yahoo) ---------------------> 114-114 Draw
Associated Press --------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Kenny Porter ------------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Roy Jones ---------------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Peter Fury ---------------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Tommy Hearns ----------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Joe Cortez ---------------------------------> 114-114 Draw
Liam Happe (Yahoo Sport UK) -----------> 114-114 Draw
Steven Muehlhausen (Sporting News) ---> 114-114 Draw
Gilbert Manzano (Denver Post) -----------> 114-114 Draw
Ben Thompson (Fight Hype) -------------> 114-114 Draw
Brian Kenny (MLB Network) -------------> 114-114 Draw
Eric Rasken (HBO) -----------------------> 114-114 Draw
Danny Flexen (British Boxers) -----------> 114-114 Draw
Kieran Mulvaney (HBO) ------------------> 114-114 Draw
David Greisman (former writer) ---------> 114-114 Draw
Unnamed writer (Unnamed site) --------> 114-114 Draw
Danny Howard (Boxing Tribune) ---------> 115-114 Canelo
De La Hoya --------------------------------> 115-113 Canelo
Bernard Hopkins --------------------------> 115-113 Canelo
Gilbert Mendoza (President of WBA) -----> 115-113 Canelo
Erik Morales -------------------------------> 117-111 Canelo (think he said; see video page 3)
Chavez Sr ---------------------------------> Canelo

 

Well I think there's a lot of confirmation bias going on here. I mean look what happened to Mora, he spoke out that he had Canelo winning comfortably and all of a sudden people are urging him to rewatch the fight and rescore it lol. So there's a lot of that going on, I think a lot of people are afraid to come out and say that they thought Canelo won for fear of being in the minority. This is just how heated boxing fans are and how big of a rivalry Canelo G is. I try not to generalize, and I do think that the 118-110 card like Robert Garcia said got a lot of people pissed off at Canelo and gave them even more incentive to argue G winning. I just think that this isn't high school ya know, fans shouldn't be peer pressured into deciding who won a fight.

 

During and immediately after the fight my exclamatory posts were that whatever the result Canelo showed he was the better fighter. I totally agree with everything TheyDontBoxNoMore7 has posted here. Canelo has better defence, he's the more accurate puncher, he's the smarter boxer. Golovkin early when he couldn't even outjab Canelo looked really stupid and clueless, following Canelo around yet terrified of being countered and the power of the smaller man. And when Canelo was against the ropes it WAS because he chose to go there, he even smiled when he would make GGG miss then countered against the ropes, and GGG shrugged to acknowledge his success. He confidently stayed there when he found GGG couldn't trap and punish him, but he wasn't troubled and could've pivoted away.

Canelo really impressed me, he goes up in my eyes and GGG goes down. I favour Canelo in a rematch. He needs to pace himself better, but GGG has to actually figure out how to hit Canelo more and get hit less.

This thread has made good points about scoring. The sport's called boxing. Landing the cleaner, more accurate punches, avoiding being hit with clean, accurate punches should be 90% of scoring. We shouldn't have to favour aggression in a round when punches landed is close. Effective aggression shouldn't be a scoring criteria on its own but only a form of 'ring generalship', while defence can just as well reveal who is more successful and controlling the action.

The critical rounds of the fight are the 10th and 11th. Canelo did some of his best work those rounds, but by then the GGG pressure was really controlling the fight, and he was more active. In the 10th he was able to land way more jabs and a lot of chopping, clean rights because he fought every minute of the round. Canelo did nothing after the first 50 seconds. This wasn't a case of Canelo landing well early then using defence to hold the round, he got hit a lot over the remaining two minutes. The 11th: well, rewatching just these rounds a third time, I might have been wrong to give it to Golovkin. Early neither landed much, Canelo focused on defence, a few jabs as GGG came in, and a couple nice counter body shots. Then some clean power shots. Canelo took the first 2:00. Golovkin simply didn't land like he did in the 10th. He did partially land punches in the last minute and a good hook with 15 seconds left, and pressured throughout and threw more to leave an impression, but that shouldn't be quite enough to win it. I hate to change two rounds since my live score, but I'm changing the 11th from Golovkin to Canelo.

So my score went from 115-113 to 116-12 GGG, to 115-113 again. With the feeling out first fair to go either way TheyDontBoxNoMore7's rbr and 7-5 Canelo score is reasonable. I respect his card more than anyone's who gave GGG 2, 3, 6, or 12. Scoring clean punching more than ineffective aggression those are indeed indisputable Canelo rounds.

1: Golovkin
2: Canelo
3: Canelo
4: Golovkin
5: Golovkin
6: Canelo
7: Golovkin
8: Golovkin
9: Golovkin
10: Golovkin
11: Canelo
12: Canelo

 

In watching the fight, I actually agree that Canelo is more talented but I still don't think he won the fight. He showed more skill, but Golovkins pressure, more activity won him the fight imo. I had it 7-5.

 

So you scored it for Golovkin but think "Canelo was robbed" - per OP - at the same time? How?

I guess you expected GGG to KO Canelo?

See, I predicted Canelo to win a fair but close decision, so for me GGG did better than I expected.

 

Hey, I love clean punching and I don't just give rounds to guys who come forward. You have to hit what you are aiming at. But Canelo did the cleaner harder punches once or twice a round whereas Golovkin was a little less accurate, a little less hard, but he'd outland Canelo about ten punches working consistently through a round. The gap in punch quantity more than made up for the gap in quality punches. Canelo would land flush with a shot worth two or three of Golovkins but then Golovkin would hit him with five or six.

I don't think any less of Golovkin or any more of Canelo because of their style choices. I'm more interested in their results. At the end of the day Golovkin landed more punches, took more rounds. He fought the better smarter fight even if he was less accurate. That's what people don't get when they compare pot shotting outside fighters to high workrate swarmers and pressure fighters.

A high volume puncher is using offense as defense. Not all of his punches are meant to connect. They are meant to keep the opponent on defense, not punching, or to move them around. As the guy coming forward, you are taking more risk. It's harder to do what Golovkin did than what Canelo did. The only way to keep the pressure on and to not get countered to death coming in is to keep up a steady output of punches, landing or not landing, to keep the opponent busy. I thought GGG was very smart, very tactical.

The problem with Mayweather and what he did was he was very low output. He'd throw ten punches a round, land four, while his opponent would throw fifteen and land two. But if Mayweather had wanted to land more he would have gotten hit more and his accuracy would have suffered. He had to commit almost completely to defense and his offense definitely suffered. Golovkin is out there committing to offense, getting in some licks and hurting people, even if he does get touched more than Mayweather.

The difference between Canelo and Golovkin the other night was that Canelo was waiting for opportunities and Golovkin was creating them. Canelo was taking breaks and holding on, while Golovkin was actively looking for a knockout the whole night. Golovkin can box better than that. He did against Lemieux, Jacobs, and Murray. Coming forward taking chances all night, pushing the pace to make Canelo gas was a part of his plan, and it worked.

I'll agree that Canelo was comfortable against the ropes, that part of his plan was to stay on the ropes, but I disagree that he chose to be there. I think that was his plan B for when he realized he couldn't trade evenly with Golovkin in the center ring and when Golovkin pushed him back there. So he did often want to be there, but Golovkin wanted him there too and if he didn't want to be there Golovkin would have made him. When he didn't want to be on the ropes, Golovkin put him there anyways; so Golovkin was dictating range and where the fight took place: Ring Generalship. I saw very little of the fight where Golovkin wasn't leading and in control of the action. I'm not saying that it was all GGG's decision, but it was kind of like Canelo was letting him lead, a partnership sort of, not totally submissive but definitely not dominant or equal. If it were a dance, then GGG was the man and Canelo was the woman following his lead, being guided, trying to move and respond to his actions and tempo.

 

Ok, I disagree with the OP's last point that Canelo was robbed. But yes, I think Golovkin deserved it, but Canelo is clearly the better overall fighter. For the reasons the OP and I stated. He has the better defence, and is able to land the cleaner, more accurate punches.

I don't think you can say Canelo didn't do better than expected while still thinking highly of Golovkin. Did you really think Canelo would outjab Golovkin? Did you really expect Canelo to comfortably handle Golovkin's power? You are frankly annoying me, accusing anyone who was impressed with Canelo of being biased and emotional. Do you get to have it both ways? If someone picked Canelo they are biased towards him, yet if I picked Golovkin I didn't get how good Canelo was going in and am therefore biased towards overrating his success? I've never been a Golovkin believer yet picked him over Canelo, because I saw GGG with the outside boxing advantages, better footwork and jab. And I had money on Golovkin. But I'm a big boy, and I don't think I've proven myself to have biased agendas or many favourites here.

 

Anything is possible. I mean, Gonzalez got KO'd in his rematch. Pacquiao got KO'd against Marquez. Martinez got KO'd against Cotto. Haye got KO'd by Bellew. Just like in any high level game, sometimes players trade victory and defeat. Nobody stays on top forever.

 

Ok, that makes sense.

I thought Canelo had better stamina and would've been able to land more of his combos.

My point is simply that it's about expectations, those who thought GGG would KO Canelo ought to give Canelo credit, while those who picked Canelo to win can reasonably be impressed with Golovkin did.

I apologize if I gave you that impression, I honestly had no intention to cast you as biased or emotional.

If you see my post history I have also praised Canelo for his part in a great fight.

Once again, I'm not saying you're biased. I know that you're a good poster and I've never thought you were biased. And I have no problem with you praising Canelo at all.

I just feel that the OP, which you "agreed with", is really derogatory of Golovkin. Maybe you didn't read it fully, let me explain.

It said that those who scored it for Golovkin were "a mob of idiots".
"GGG looked like Margarito"
"His power was abysmal"
"Ggg is not the truth"
"They actually robbed Canelo intentionally"

If my short reply to you was a bit brusque, the OP was a good deal more aggressive than I was.

 

Golovkin didn't create ****.

You saw GGG coming forward and getting nothing accomplished except getting more jabs to the face, missing more punches and repeatedly walking into uppercuts.

Canelo would be the one creating opportunities setting traps for GGG and feinting and hitting him that pull counter.

LOL.

 

I was too defensive, it's not like you're on a witchhunt, and you're a great asset to the forum. I just, respectfully, don't agree with your responses to the OP in this thread and your exact take on Golovkin.

I only disagree with the OP that Canelo was "robbed intentionally", which is ridiculous. But everything else is worthwhile for him to point out, and ignored in too much of the comments about the decision, not just on the forum but by fans and media generally. Golovkin I agree looked clueless and more like Margarito than an efficent attacker for much of the fight. He didn't setup his power well or hurt the smaller man when he did land. His ability should be questioned by his backers more than it has been. That it isn't is why the OP's making stronger statements. Golovkin looked worse against Canelo imo than he did against Jacobs. I thought he won and he was stronger as the fight went on and deserved the 10th. But otherwise this thread is a great intervention, and I'm going to be pretty damn derogatory about Golovkin too.

 

I respect your opinion, that's fine, we can agree to disagree a little. It's not all that much, we have the same score (7-5 GGG) after all.

I guess I reacted strongly in this thread to the "mob of idiots" and "robbery" remark. Here's how I see it:

"a mob of idiots" - you see, I never called those who scored it close for Canelo anything close to this derogatory. I know plenty of others have been crying robbery, and saying that only biased people did not have Golovkin winning, but not me. Byrd, yes, but 10-2 was actually ridiculous.

"GGG looked like Margarito" - a bit exaggerated, GGG is a pressure fighter but a good deal better than Margarito. But maybe it's partly I don't rate or like Margarito at all.

"His power was abysmal" - clear exaggeration, by all means GGG's power didn't live up to some of the hype, but "abysmal" is frankly way off the mark.

"Ggg is not the truth" - I consider any elite fighter the truth.

To me if Canelo is a good fighter then Golovkin is a good fighter and vice versa. That was a close fight.

I find it hard to understand how it's possible to say Canelo is good, Golovkin is bad - unless it's solely a comparison to the hype or to one's previous opinion + one thinks that Golovkin was hyped a lot more than Canelo.

By all means it's fine to criticize GGG and say he's not as good as one thought, but I do think it is helpful to stick to facts and avoid exaggerations.

Exaggerations are, after all, what made GGG hyped up so much (beating HWs, etc.).

 

Sure especially when you picked Walters to beat Lomachenko. Quit presenting yourself as a boxing expert, you are a clown, nothing more.