Chavez sr vs Duran

This is why people get mad at me on here. I say he was great and had the greatest inside fighter instincts of anyone, but the flaw and way to beat Duran is get him out of range and use handspeed and footpositioning to be out of that range of his instincts, and guys did do that. It took a great to do it, and when he moved up coincidentally he fought greater guys. I don't think he lost because he was not good when he moved up, he fought greater guys. Sure the weight was not as beneficial to him as 135, but he fought at 154 earlier than the other guys did. Hearns, Leonard and Benitez. Whenever people admire someone they don't see the flaws. I understand that, but with Duran it goes pretty far.

 

By the end of his tenure at 135 Duran was indeed a sharp shooter. Do you think he miraculously developed as a fighter after 60+ fights when he moved up in weight? Duran threw heaps of gun barrel straight right hands at 135, heaps of them.

Chavez had less than a handful of fights at 135. Duran had dozens and dozens. If Chavez based himself at lightweight for 7 years and took on the best of that era he too may have found himself suffering a kd or two. He also may have found himself beaten or perhaps not even the best of the era.

You want to count out Chavez's knockdowns at higher weights so we've got a sample size of 3 fights for Chavez over less than 12 months whilst Duran has seven or so years and dozens and dozens of fights. Talk about unfair!!!

Oh and you can discount Duran's KD in De Jesus 1 as they were over 135. So we have one kd at 135 across that illustrious reign.

Ali suffered flash kd's, Holmes was dropped heavily multiple times, Foreman was dropped heavily and suffered a flash KD as well, Monzon suffered a flash KD etc etc etc. How are their chins?

Again Duran didn't morph into a different fighter suddenly after leaving 135. He was fully developed at that stage - the complete package.

Chavez fought at the weight for less than a year.

I am not arguing resumes i am pointing out the disadvantage Duran is at with such a huge sample size vs such a small one. I've explained it much further above just to make it extremely clear.

In the meantime here is a clip of Duran effortlessly slipping numerous punches with head movement before spinning Esteban around and pounding on him in combination.

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/jB5c9a0a0ae8237

Here are a couple of brutal straight right hands that he didn't possess -

https://ytcropper.com/crop.php?ytURL=O0g8-KVp06s

Numerous defensive highlights including heaps at 135 in this one. Let me know if you are not sure what fights were at 135 and i will point them out for you -

This content is protected

And one more brutal right hand -

https://ytcropper.com/cropped/lS5c9a1152c0685

 

You need to go to you tube, at 135 pounds , or any weight, Duran was better defensively, was quicker, feinted his opponents out of position , and hit harder. You don't get the nick name , Hands of Stone , due to your looks. This fight would be about styles, Chavez would be coming straight at Roberto Duran with zero physical advantages. This fight ain't going the distance , when the bombs start flying and he can't back Duran up, he'll be the one backing up and getting nailed, a macho struggle breaks out and Chavez gets TKO'ed in about 8 .

 

Funny post

Though, I'd like to know the things you feel Chavez does better than Duran?

 

Correction, I listed a whole bunch of attributes and ask Ike's supporters which ones Ike was better at than Duran. Crickets was the only response to that, and showing me a HL of Ike. The question wasn't made to slight Ike, it was made to see what people were basing picking Ike on. They must believe he does certain things better or that he has a style to beat Duran. The only response I got from any Ike supporter was you, and it was a HL video, which did little to address my question. It's all good Philly Phil, just wanted a little correction on what happened.

 

A definitely a better jab??? Don't see that, but okay

 

Why does Bundini keep saying Chavez had faster hands??? Are we watching the same fights, because I can't come close to seeing that one. I might say Chin, but barely if that. Faster hands... at 135... nah.

 

YES!!!! I was waiting for the famed Duran fought at 154 earlier than SRL or Hearns LMAO. Nevermind the fact that he'd already been fighting for a decade before them already, and they were naturally bigger than him. Duran starts at LW, SRL and Hearns start at WW. That's two divisions north of where Duran starts. So they're clearly bigger guys naturally. Duran blows up in weight in between LW fights, and they want to keep him active so they take non title fights above 135... and this proves what exactly??? That he was more a natural 154 pounder than them??? He was more suited to the weight than them? Nope. When he fought them, they were prime, while he was past his prime. They were naturally bigger than him. Those are the biggest factors in why they won. Not the famed, DURAN FOUGHT AT 154 BEFORE THEMMMMMMMMM!!!! So........

 

Duran's first real good win against Marcel came at Super Featherweight as well. He was 18 then, can't have grown that much more.

 

First minor note. I find it a little disingenuous to ask someone to provide an analysis when you don’t provide one first to refute or counter.

As was mentioned above Ike was mentioned as having a better jab by another poster for starters. I would agree, would you?

In regards to JCC and Duran I have just begun rewatching and restoring their fights you can check it out in

https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/the-what-fights-did-you-watch-today-scorecard-thread.186016/

If you care to. I don’t have an out and out analysis yet, that I want to share yet and probably won’t till I get done reviewing them. I think their styles and skill are comparable.

So far I would say Duran has better foot speed but Chavez has better footwork and placement and is better balanced. Duran has the edge in hand speed but both have great timing and countering, not sure I am ready to say one was better than the other. I think Chavez was better in regards to not wasting any energy or unnecessary movement. I think Chavez was better working off of the ropes which is a position I expect both to find themselves in from Time to time. I think along with better hand speed Duran also had higher volume (thrown), but that Chavez was more accurate. I think both are great defensively but Roberto was probably better at it, although both were willing to get hit more than they had to because of their chins and ability to Outland with cleaner harder punches than their opponents. I think I would give Duran more one punch power but think that JCC consistently landed harder shots. Once again I think this would lead toward some exciting exchanges that both guys would win there share of. Chin, call it a wash as I think both guys are top notch and if their is a difference it is splitting hairs. Likewise stamina, both seemed to have a nonstop engine, and I don’t think one guy outfatigues the other. I think Duran held his right a little lower, and got caught by some lefts that Chavez will score with.

Not sure that satisfies you or any others who say break it down for us without providing a breakdown of your own. I personally expect any Duran fans to tell me I am wrong and that there is nothing that Ike or JCC do better. I am focusing on JCC largely here because..well this is the thread.

So while I think Duran has advantages I also think Chavez has better
Accuracy
Timing
Foot placement/balance
Against the topes
Power (consistent wise)

But in many/most of these cases the margin would still be slim.

I think the Chavez of the Rosario fight is on par with LW Duran (even though I rate Duran higher) and don’t see why it is unfair to pick him....nor why I am asked by you and others to provide a breakdown that you yourselves have not.

 

As a pure, mechanical punch, Ike's was better. Few lightweights match it (Benny Leonard).

However, Duran's variety and intelligence with his Jab to set up opportunities and control his opponent is in a very, very high league, one of the best. Its one of the ways I feel he'd beat chavez. Confuse, draw shots and certain reactions, then 'conquer'.

 

That is significant. He gets excuses when other people do not, and I picked him to beat Chavez here. He was a great fighter. I never said he was not great, I said hew as always great and the guys who beat him beat him legit and the weight issues were overblown as excuses for him. When he won at 154 and middleweight he sure got the credit.

 

Excellent post Philly, and I appreciate you taking the time you did to post. First, I agree with you in the sense that if someone always asks you to prove something or to expand on something, that they never expand on themselves; yes, if this continually happened it would be annoying and disingenuous. However, I don't think that is the case here or in the Ike thread. In both instances it was, I think Ike wins in a good fight, I think Duran does more things better... etc etc. At some point somebody has to ask the other side why you believe that, and I don't think there's anything disingenuous about that at all. A more in depth conversation has to be started someplace, and it could've been by the Ike or Chavez supporters, and them asking wouldn't be disingenuous imo. Even in the Ike thread, as you know, it's not like somebody actually answered me and ask me and I didn't respond. Nothing was responded to really, except a HL video.

Now, in regards to your question about Jab... I will say this on it. I believe Ike relied more on the jab than Roberto did, and used it more often, but to say better.... that is where things become tricky. A few things, imo Duran outjabbed SRL in their bout, even though SRL wasn't using at much as he should've. When he did, Duran was the better judge of range, precision and feinting, and won that aspect of the fight. So imo it was an underrated asset of Duran that could be called upon when needed. As I mentioned Duran used the jab more of a means to an end, to set up punches, to look for openings and to keep his foe off balance. So did Ike use it more, sure he did, if you think using it more means its better, okay. If you're asking me, would Ike outjab Duran or does he have a more educated jab than Duran, my answer would be no. My answer would also be no in that it would win him the fight. Ken B has a better jab than Ike or Duran, and it didn't get him very far with Duran. So that would be my answer friend.

Now, I like your analysis, and I'll touch on that some here. I don't want to get into too much detail as I feel like you already mentioned these areas are close. However, I would only touch on timing, which I believe is distinctly in favor of Duran. Duran imo was much better countering on the inside, which is really indicative of having good timing while in close. Even on the outside, Duran parried more punches than Chavez would, which again speaks to his timing. Duran's counter right hand was a thing of beauty, and many times was the result of good timing. Being that Duran had faster hands than Chavez, maybe this aided in his timing perception, because he could get there which was timing but also aided by his faster hands. So maybe that muddies the water some, but I wouldn't say Chavez had better timing.

I do believe Chavez does have better balance and foot placement. I think that's an excellent call, and one I would agree with, even though I didn't think of it at the time. Accuracy I'm a little torn on. I think percentage wise, Chavez likely is more accurate, but I'm not so sure it's because he's more accurate of a puncher, and more to do with Duran throwing more punches and going more balls to the wall so to speak and forgetting about accuracy. I guess the point I'm making is, if there exchanging the center of the ring and nobody is rushing or throwing wild punches.. I wouldn't expect Chavez to land more, actually the opposite. However Duran is more likely to start to bull rush and throw punches while a little out of position, and thus Chavez would be more accurate percentage wise. Power imo Duran has the edge, but your more talking consistent wise, and I'm okay with it.

I don't think you want me listing attributes that Duran is superior to Chavez in, but I can if needed, but I don't think you want that. What I will say, and why I think this fight is in Duran's favor is this.... As you know, I believe Duran does more things better than Chavez. Not all, but more things, which we can go over if need be. So in order for me to believe a fighter can beat another, when they aren't as good in as many areas, is they have the fight style to overcome said deficiencies. This is where I see the issue. Chavez would be the smaller guy in the ring, yet his style if more of a come forward break you down type of style. I just don't think that is the style to beat Duran with, especially when your the smaller guy, who's not quite as good in as many areas. That seems like a disaster waiting to happen. The guys who troubled Duran were movers with good hand speed or physical dimensions. Chavez is none of those things. So imo we're left with a guy coming at Duran the way he likes it, it's a dog fight. Duran being better defensively, will get his less (though he will be caught off balance more than Chavez will), and being that I find him better inside technically, I feel he'll be landing the more telling bellows. All thhe while enjoying being the slightly bigger guy and imo the overall better guy at more things. That is why I have a hard time picking Chavez, and why it seems so dismissive, because of the above. For example, Duran does things better than Hearns, a good amount of things, but Tommy's physical advantages and style matches up well. I'm guess I'm just not seeing how this fight goes Chavez way. If they stay on the outside, I think we agree Duran would likely win that type of boxing match. If it goes inside, again, I'm not liking Chavez to come out on top there.

Anyways, I appreciate you answering and taking the time to answer. You came up with a few areas I agree with, and didn't really consider. Though the ropes things surprised me some, as Chavez didn't have his back against the ropes much, but I guess when he was it was impressive iyo. At the end of the day this is all for fun, and we're just throwing around ideas and scenario we have no idea if they would occur, but it's fun never the less.

 

I participated in the Duran/Ike thread and I did give Duran more advantages but not without alot of thought. Ike Williams is one of my all time favorite fighters regardless of division.
There were a couple of categories that I noted that I don't have enough footage of Ike like maybe Ring IQ. Some of the advantages I perceive Duran to have were slight or marginal. Like power they could scramble your brains.
Only speaking for myself I didn't give anyone s*** for favoring Williams or picking Ike. It's a hell of a fight a hell of a matchup.

 

Duran Fanboys lol.
Hahahahhahahahah
Duran should have beat everyone he fought. Since he did everything so much better than any all time great.
Duran is overrated by you guys.