Chins and size. Is there a Correlation?

In the heavyweight division, it is often said that the single most important asset is a solid chin.

It is a given that a good middleweight will almost universally take a better punch that a good lightweight. The difference between the two classes is 25 pound, minus any shenanigans on the scale where fighters notoriously weight more the night of the fight. When a fighter at a lower weight often moves up in class, his power and durability often lose something in the translation. Examples of this are too numerous to list. In the lower weight classes, a ten-pound advantage can make a big difference.

Before I go any further, I want to say that Power punchers can be found anywhere between 165lbs - 260+lbs. The ability to get your opponents respect is very important in the heavyweight division. I have seen numerous fighters on film weighing between 169- 199 absolutely crush heavier opponents with thunderous punches. Having said that, fighters in general weighing 200+ hit harder fighters in general weighing 169-199. In general, fighters weighing 190 hit harder than fighters weighing 175. I want to avoid always or never, but in general, this is the case. There is a strong coloration. The exceptions to the rule are of course Fitzsimmons, Dempsey, Louis, and Marciano. I will never doubt these fighters' power. Their records and films are proof positive enough that these men, despite being under 200 pounds should qualify as all time punchers at heavyweight, right up there with significantly bigger heavyweight champions who could also punch like Jeffries, Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Bowe, and Lewis. While the 200+ crew might hold a slight edge over the 170-199 crew in power, it is somewhat debatable.

Hopefully, by now, everyone here agrees with the above. Do we? I hope so because I am about to draw a line in cyberspace that will create conflict between you'’re fan interests and your god gave logic.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Boxing history is full of great champions who fought most of their career under 200 pounds. In some cases, I rank a select few of them ( Dempsey, Johnson, and Marciano ) are in the bottom half of my all time top ten, which is done in a who beats who sense.

I want to talk about some of the sub 200 pound X lineal heavyweight champs, who were good enough to come out on top 20 all time lists. Could these guys take a big punch?

Fitzsimmons
Corbett
Dempsey
Tunney
Schmeling
Charles
Walcott
Marciano
Patterson.
And Ingo.

I am omitting Joe Louis and Jack Johnson from the above list because their best weight could be viewed anywhere from 190-210, but I'll talk about them a bit. I consider Louis and Johnson to be small heavyweights. Johnson's chin is most certainly suspect at heavyweight. He was KO'd by smaller men, knocked down by smaller men, Stunned by opponents who hardly landed, and employed a safety first cautious style for obvious reasons.

Louis' chin seems to be somewhere between average to reliable enough to avoid TKO's in his era, but on film, he goes down to guys that I don't consider to be big punchers. Sometimes he gets caught by average skilled fighters. Other times he is rocked and stung by light hitters but does not go down.

Because Louis has top end skills on offense, speed, considerable power, stamina, and heart, I rate him in my top eight. In theory, Louis could TKO / KO any man.

However, I also believe that each guy ( Jack and Joe ) would have more TKO losses on their resume if they faced skilled punchers. The shaky moments they survived vs. smaller less than skilled fighters, might very well have gotten them TKO'd vs. a bigger, more skilled puncher. So while I rate Louis highly and Johnson in my top 20 ( for now ), I also factor in that neither was very big or very durable. Each had flaws, as do all fighters.

Part II below:

 

Part II...


Let's get back to the list of quality lineal heavyweight champions who fought at 200 pounds for most of their career.

Who among them could really take a good punch?

Fitzsimmons - Fitz could be floored, but often got up. Like Louis his power prevented his chin from being tested in some cases. Fitz's chin was suspect to big punchers. Solid vs the rest.

Corbett - Chin was a little suspect to big punchers. Solid vs the rest.

Dempsey - I believe Dempsey at 185-190, had a solid chin. He was in enough fights, and was only stopped once, though he was stung by some mere solid punchers, and floored by some bigger punchers. With Dempsey, his explosive style, power, and killer instinct did not allow his chin to be tested in some fights vs Big punchers. He knocked them out. Other times, he was knocked down by fighters not exactly known for power, and in some cases skills. I give Dempsey bonus points for being able to fight hurt. I think the Brennan and Firpo fights prove that Dempsey could take a good punch.

Tunney - Tunney was only down once in his entire career, and that was one heck of a combination by Jack Dempsey. The long court or not, Tunney got up and moved very well. Tunney is one of the few champions in any weight class never to be KO'd. Tunney is a sub 200 pounder that I feel could take a good heavyweight punch.

Schmeling – Schmeling had too many KO losses. His chin was that bad, but it was not that good.

Charles - Floored 30 times in his career. His chin should be questioned.

Walcott - Chinny vs punchers. His chin should be questioned vs punchers.

Marciano - Only down twice in a long career, by two fair but not special punchers at heavyweight in Walcott and Moore. Unlike Dempsey, Marciano’s chin was never tested by a hitter, say on Brennan's or Fripo's level. Marciano proved his chin was very solid, but he did not fight any real power puncher, so how good is in question. If Moore or Walcott could put Marciano down, I could name 50 better punchers who could also do the same or better when they landed cleanly.

Patterson - Down a lot and KO'd often. His chin should be questioned vs punchers.

Ingo- Down a lot. Somewhat protected on the way up but was floored before Patterson. KO'd twice by Patterson. Retired before he could be KO’d more often.

Of the TEN sub, 200-pound champs listed that could qualify as top 20 all time heavyweights, only three quality as having really good chins. Dempsey is in. I'’m giving Marciano and Tunney the nod, but their chins were not tested by 200+ pound skilled punchers.

Some seasoned fans and historians of smaller lineal champs weighing between 170- 199 pounds still think size does not matter. I believe it does. In fact, I believe pre-1960, many of histories great champs were lucky that there were next to no large skilled heavyweights. Post-1960, it is clear that 200+ pound fighters have ruled the heavyweight division. This is an undisputable fact. Most of them were taller and had more reach in comparison to their histories past lineal champs. In boxing, height and reach also matter.

In closing, I would like to talk about some modern 175-199 pound fighters who were light heavy or cruiserweight champions. In other words, fighters who would not have have been at a weight disadvantage at heavyweight ( for the most part ) had they fought pre-1960. In some cases, these were pound for pound guys who looked very good on film.

***VERY FEW light heavyweight/cruisers in my lifetime have proven they could take a good heavyweight punch. I shall list a few.**

Roy Jones - Could he take a good heavyweight punch? No Way, light heavies badly KO'd him when they landed.

Spinks - Spinks' had a solid chin at 175. I believe Spinks' chin was equal to or better than Charles', Walcott's, and many another sub 200 pound champs. Spinks ring record is excellent. He only lost once to a prime Mike Tyson. As a puncher, 65.6% of his fights ended up as KO wins. Perhaps Spinks hit harder than most sub 200 pound heavyweight champs. I rate Spinks as an all time top 5 light heavy, and likely all time top 50 heavy. Yet an older Holmes who lost a lot of zip on his punches, nearly KO'd him. Tyson did the job in one round. Could Spinks take a good heavyweight punch? No, and once he stepped up in weight, a once solid chin went to suspect.

Foster - Frazier blew him out. Foster's power and chin did not translate well into the heavyweight division, in a time where 200-215 pounds was the norm. Foster's chin was solid at 175, suspect past that mark, and would be suspect at the 190 mark.

Holyfield - The rare exception! Holyfield had a top chin at cruiser and heavy. He proved it vs BIG puncher's. Holyfield was also was 6'2" with a 77" reach. He had the frame to carry more weight without sacrificing speed or stamina. Not all x lineal champs below 200 pounds could properly add weight to their frames.

Czyz - A champion at cruiserweight, Czyz was awful as a heavyweight. He was chinny. Ko vs the best, and shaky vs journeyman heavies.

Jirov - Another Cruiserweight champ. Jirov was durable at 190, he was meat at 200 +

Morrer- Skilled and powerfully, but chinny. Like Holyfield, Moorer had the frame to get bigger without losing much speed or stamina. But could he take a good heavyweight punch? No. Was his chin fine at 175-190? Yep.

Ok, I listed SEVEN modern guys, who weighed between 175-199 pounds. Each guy was a champion weighing between 175-199, a weight that some feels is not a handicap at heavyweight...at least in an all time ranking sense.

So how come only 1 of the 7 guys I listed proved that he could take a heavyweight punch?! Well,—these guys fought vs quality 200+ pound heavyweight. Maybe that had something to do with it. My conclusion which is heavily based on FILMS, as well as stats, is, guys weighing between 175-199 are not likely to be able to take a good heavyweight punch. In fact, when they step up to heavyweight, they are often blown out vs other top ten heavyweights. Of course, there are some exceptions to the rule, but not many. I omitted James Toney due to substance abuse.

Furthermore, the modern guys I listed, for the most part, had NO issues with durability in their natural weight classes. I don't think this is terribly difficult to figure out. If you're a heavyweight fan, cast your bias aside and look other divisions. When a fighter moves to a different weight class, his chin and power often lose something in the translation.

The same should logic should apply to old timers. I also believe that there is, in fact, a correlation between weight and power. Though as always there are exceptions to the rule.

My theory is, size is an asset as long as it does not diminish stamina and speed. And it sure helps when taking a punch!.

 

Well, I did list a lot of modern guys from 175+ to about 200, the same weight as many old timers, and showed most of them did not take a heavyweight punch well. So there is a correlation.

Does size help when taking a punch? Evidence says it does. The best modern chins in the 2000's are Vitali K, Wach, Valuev, and McCall. Big guys. Few light heavies or cruisers are moving up these days, and perhaps an even greater difference in weight among the top ten heavyweights contenders is a reason why.

Sure modern super heavy champions can be stopped for TKO's/KO's, but when it happens is usually from a big 220+ pound puncher.