I agree entirely. The Rooney version of Tyson wanted to fight, and he wanted to train. He was in incredible shape and he was focused. All of that changed when Givens came on the scene, and King got hold of him. At that point he was never going to be the same. Mike boxing at 100% of his capabilites, definitely beats Lennox in my opinion. It's unbelievable that Mike was finished at only 23/24 after the Douglas loss. The money, the fame, the women, it was too much for him. How many fights did he really train for, where he gave absolutely everything? I knew he wasn't going to beat Evander. I could see it coming. He didn't have the focus. He was there physically, but not mentally. A younger version of Mike would never have got frustrated like he did. King just cashed him out. How many trainers did he end up going through? The 2002 fight with Lennox was a circus. It should never have been signed. Mike could have been one of the greatest fighters of all time. Regards, Loudon.
Eubank couldn't take body punches. It's the reason he was hitting and holding against Benn II, so Benn couldn't go to the body. It also explains why he turned down the McCallum fight. That was due to Tyson being so predictable and telegraphing his left hooks. To be a counter puncher you have to wait for opponent to commit to a punch then exploit the opening his offense provides. Eubank wasn't even able to do that consistently against a plodder like Collins Who did Eubank fight who was as fast as Toney? He had his hands full with slow Collins I said that Eubank's footwork was sloppy and I gave fights which highlighted that fact: Collins and Calzaghe. He squared himself up and got dropped by a pillow fisted Collins. He also was lunging and off balance when he got dropped by Calzaghe. LHW Toney was not as good as smw Toney, for obvious reasons Dave Tiberi was on the same level as Collins who beat Eubank twice. Griffin would of beat Eubank, especially with Futch in his corner Toney won the Thadzi fight and got robbed. Just like Thornton "the punching postman" beat Eubank and got robbed or how about club fighter Schommer who also beat Eubank and got robbed. Griffin while he was with Futch was better than Eubank, which is why he had two wins over Toney(HOFer) and a win over prime Jones(ATG). No win of Eubank's can compare to those. Griffin was not that similar to Eubank either. ????????? Eubank was at his best at mw, he slipped a number of steps when he moved to smw, which is why he struggled with most of his opponents no matter how mediocre they were.
Regardless, Eubank was extremely tough, and the only time he didn't finish a fight was when he was past his best, fighting 20 pounds above his natural weight. Toney isn't stopping Eubank, simple as that. Regardless, my point stands. Griffin was able to have success counter-punching against Roy Jones, and Jones is probably the fastest LHW of all time, and he was as unpredictable as they come. Hopkins had success counter-punching Joe Calzaghe who was also unpredictable. ok thanks for the tip coach - I'll bare it in mind when I'm sparring tomorrow Nigel Benn Neither of those guys are similar to Toney in any way Why? LHW Toney didn't have to cut excessive amounts of weight to make 168 you think Dave Tiberi would be able to give Mike Mccallum a good hard fight like Collins did? You think Dave Tiberi could fight Reggie Johnson to an SD? :good Quite possibly, but Griffin was a natural LHW, Eubank started his career at MW - There isn't much between them Toney didn't get robbed against Thadzi, that was a close fight that many feel Thadzi edged on work-rate. A robbery would be - Lewis-Holyfield 1, Whitaker-Chavez Toney-Thadzi is no robbery. But regardless, Toney also has two losses to club fighters in Thadzi and Tiberi - both guys were prone to off nights. For the sake of a mythical H2H match up, I'm looking at both guys on a good night How much stock do you put in Griffin's win over Jones? Most feel he got fortunate under the circumstances and whilst I had Griffin winning at that point, it looked like Jones was going to stop him before long. Fighters have gotten away with worse than what Roy got DQ'd for. ??^%&@**?? In the video above Toney is calling out Eubank when they're both at SMW! ??$%^@:**???
I never said he would. You are the one you claimed that Toney couldn't hurt Eubank How? By using a case of Evander fighting a predictable Tyson who was throwing single shots at a time? You obviously have not watched that fight Maybe I was watching another fight where Hopkins was throwing right hand LEADS then clinching I find it strange when people go out of their way to claim certain things. I have never felt any need to highlight my martial arts background here. In fact I would say it was quite irrelevant. Either what I say makes sense or it does not Hell no Benn tended to load up on his punches What are you talking about? I named the Collins and Calzaghe fights as examples where Eubank's footwork was sloppy. Do you think walking into the ring carrying excess fat hinders you or helps you? McCallum was not a big hitter at mw. I'm sure quite a few tough limited natural mw's would of been able to go the distance with him. Doesn't mean they were anywhere near as good as him. I'm sure Tiberi could of gone the distance with McCallum. If he could take Toney's punches then he could take Mccallum's Please stop boxrecing Reggie Johnson clearly won that fight. You would now that if you actually watched it Griffin would of out-boxed him. The fact that they made their pro debuts at different weight classes is irrelevant here, especially with Griffin being such a small lhw. The only people I have ever come across who claim that tend to be Toney haters. You are the one who brought up Toney's losses to Thadzi and Tiberi Dave Tiberi was not a club fighter either. A club fighter would be someone like Dan Schommer A solid win for Griffin. Jones deserved to get dqed Maybe and maybe not. Here we go again your post Eubank was at his best at mw as well Eubank was done as a world class fighter after the Watson I fight. He refused to train properly and by the time of the Schommer fight he was only training one week before fights. It's the reason he struggled with almost everyone at smw Compare their performances against Thornton. Toney toyed with Thornton and carried him to the end of the fight. Eubank struggled and should of lost that fight
He wouldn't hurt Eubank Strawman argument You said you need a speed advantage to counter, I said you didn't with an example, now you're backpeddling Good one :good This content is protected GIFSoup[/QUOTE] You obviously have not watched that fight What's your martial arts background? Not a wind up, I'm interested, I used to do a little bit of martial arts years ago, You think Toney was faster than Benn?? How is that relevant? Toney is not similar to Collins or Calzaghe at all Toney carried excess fat as a SMW, at LHW he didn't have to cut that extra 7 pounds Collins pushed Mccallum and gave him a hard fight. zzz.... I never said Collins won, I said it was a close fight, which it was. You know it was a close fight, so why be disingenuous? Griffin's prime was at LHW, Eubank's between MW-SMW. If they were the same size, I'd say it's a close fight. Like the judges? Perhaps the commentators who scored it to Thadzi, or several fans on boxing boards who also scored it to Thadzi. Google it and look around, don't get upset and defensive and accuse everyone of being a Toney hater :| My bad, tell me more about the great Dave Tiberi please Are you blind? Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW - watch the video in the OP. IF they were to fight, it would have been at SMW. Triangle theory?
Yes, he would. Eubank obviously knew McCallum's punches would mess him up' which is why he turned that fight down. Toney hit much harder than McCallum. Which punches was Holyfield countering? Which punches of Jones was Griffin countering? You class that as counter punching:huh Like I said before its irrelevant. Of course he was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9qaqiU_11o Does he have to be? Look at Eubank's footwork in those fights. Look how he is out of position and squared up, so he gets dropped by a right hook from a light hitting opponent. Another example would be that "kung fu kick" he did during Benn II During which fights? How? Johnson won by at least 2 points. It was competitive at parts, but Johnson was the much better fighter. What are you talking about? Eubank could of easily moved up to lhw. The judges and the commentators also scored Pac-Jmm III for Pacquaio do you agree with that? Why don't you post up your scorecard or are you just going from what others are saying? I never said he was great. I just pointed out that he was not a club fighter. He was a ordinary FULL TIME fighter who had worked his way up to the top of the ibf rankings to get a title shot. Schommer on the other side had, had only 2 fights in the previous three years before fighting Eubank an worked full time in a office job. Your post Is this not your post? How on earth was I using triangle theory? Toney toyed with the sort of fighters who Eubank struggled with. Malinga? Schommer? Close? Thornton? Collins? Who on earth did Collins beat outside of Eubank?
We'll agree to disagree here You said it yourself, Holyfield could predict when Tyson would launch his left hook as he loaded it up. As for Jones-Griffin - it's been a while since I've watched it, unfortunately I don't possess a photographic memory [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhPMQo8k1gg[/ame] Have a watch through that and see Griffin landing counters especially in the exchanges I would consider the right hand that Hopkins lands at the end there as a counter punch. He landed other good shots like that Why? We're on a boxing and MMA forum. I always enjoy reading people's stories and experiences on here, boxing or martial arts. Nothing wrong with sharing them Toney is lightning fast there to be fair, though I still consider Benn quicker, especially with his feet Depends on how he'd approach a fight against Toney. For starters, Toney wouldn't bring the pressure that Benn did, and he'd be wary of his counter punching, as opposed to Collins and Calzaghe who weren't regarded as counter punchers (though Calzaghe developed that skill later in his career). This content is protected Toney as a SMW from the fight with Roy - clearly carrying excess fat Mccallum won the first 5 rounds easy, as Collins was getting picked off with ease. When Collins became aggressive and a little reckless, he pressured Mike and won rounds I agree Johnson was better, but Collins gave him a hard fight, it was close certainly to an extent. You said Tiberi was the same level as Collins, I disagree True, but starting at MW and then ending up at LHW isn't the same as starting at LHW That was a close fight, but not a good example. It's pretty widely accepted that JMM won, I had him winning 115-113 when I watched it, though I've seen people's scorecards that have JMM winning 117-111, a few had it for Pac. Toney-Thadzi was a close fight, many people have it for Thadzi, whereas few have it for Pac, many have it for Thadzi, it wasn't a robbery. At the end of the day, Toney should deal with a guy like Thadzi easy, he was levels above him. Why would I have a Toney-Thadzi scorecard with me now. For recent fights I keep them on my iphone now, but before then I would write them on paper and I don't have them on me At the end of the day, it was a close fight, certainly not a robbery and not many argue that Thadzi didn't deserve it. It is what it is. At the end of the day, Toney had no business losing to him. It would be the equivalent of Mayweather losing to someone like Matthew Hatton True, Eubank-Schommer was embarrassing, Eubank had no business losing to him either. ?? Toney called Eubank out when they were at SMW, not MW. They would have fought at SMW. Not really sure how much clearer I can make that for you? :huh Styles make fights I know Eubank struggled with Collins, but Collins brought non stop pressure - Toney was more skilled and didn't fight anything like that - which is what would suit Eubank more
Why is MMA, the equivalent of human cockfighting/pitbull fighting, being brought up in this thread? :-(
Watson II: His body shots were hurting Eubank, which is why Eubank became over protective of his body during the later rounds Watson dropped him during the 11th with a right hook Benn I: Hurt Eubank with body shots Refused to fight McCallum because he knew McCallum would focus on his body Toney hurts Eubank with body shots, whether you like it or not. Point 1: I asked you about the fight and you quote my post? You have not watched that fight. Feel free to prove me wrong by describing Evander's strategy during that fight Point 2: There is no difference between the hand speed of Tyson and Holyfield so it was a bad example to start with So you quote a fight you don't even remember? That automatically disqualifies the Jones-Griffin I fight seeing as how you dont even remember what happened during it Well you considered it wrong. So I will say it again. Benn tended to load up on his shots which made them harder but SLOWER. Post up a clip which shows Benn throwing a fast combination.
Eubank was never stopped on body shots - Toney isn't stopping Eubank, deal with it. zzz... Priceless! http://youtu.be/JVWxyijC6FY?t=2m49s Holyfield lands a cracking counter and puts Tyson down. Holyfield did not have faster hands. He had a great strategy of timing Tyson on the way in with right hands and then tieing up, and countering Tyson's left hooks throughout the fight. I posted up a video that shows Griffin landing counter punches. I don't remember every minute of the fight, do you? What a silly thing to say http://www.fighthype.com/pages/content9018.html Further to that, watch the video I posted. Don't be disingenuous. No, you considered it wrong :thumbsup [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVgkCN_1aE[/ame] For instance, see the uppercut and left hook on Barkley around 1:40, or go to 1:55 Benn was more agile than Toney no doubt - you're in denial because you're a James Toney fanboy - evidenced by the fact that you argue when you've clearly been proven wrong, and you take any comment about Toney on a personal level - denial, projection, distortion - textbook defence mechanisms which are on display in your posts. I bet you'll bring up something completely unrelated to this discussion in your response in an attempt to deflect away from this or defend yourself.