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Classics that never happened

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Stevie G, Sep 9, 2010.

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Jear Well-Known Member Full Member

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Trinidad Quartey 99
Sanchez Arguello 79/80

Jear, Sep 10, 2010

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left right left Well-Known Member Full Member

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sugarsean said: ↑

Marvellous Marvin Hagler Vs Sugar Ray Leonard - 1982

that would of been amazing to watch
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Hagler KO 11 Leonard

left right left, Sep 11, 2010

#62

Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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left right left said: ↑

Hagler KO 11 Leonard
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The irony being that Hagler would have done better in a prime for prime situation,than he did when Leonard was rusty as hell. I think Hagler would have won on points. Pretty clearly.

Stevie G, Sep 11, 2010

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Jersey Joe Well-Known Member Full Member

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Ali Frazier without the suspension.

Hearns McCallum

Leonard Pryor

Hearns Pryor

Dempsey Wills

Tunney Wills

Jersey Joe, Sep 11, 2010

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Bob Foster-Harold Johnson
Frazier-Liston
Fullmer-Giardello II
Robinson-Basilio III

DFW, Sep 11, 2010

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The Morlocks Boxing Junkie Full Member

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PhillyPhan69 said: ↑

"Joltin" Jeff Chandler vs Lupe Pintor- remains the fight that never happened that I probably am most disappointed about!
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Me too and I think Pintor gets Chandler out of there inside of 11. Some others were Fletcher-Hagler, Saad-Spinks and of course, Pedroza-Sanchez. And I still pine for the twice cancelled Weaver-Cobb slugfest. **** you Don King!

The Morlocks, Sep 11, 2010

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klompton Boxing Addict banned

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RockysSplitNose said: ↑

klompton said: ↑

Do you seriously want to argue now that Miske, Brennan (who was manhandled in preparation for his title shot against Dempsey by Kid Norfolk who Wills nearly decapitated a year later), Carpentier, Gibbons and Firpo, over seven years deserved to be ahead of Wills, and/or posed a greater threat than Wills? GTFO!quote]

How many rounds did Firpo go with Wills????? Oh yeah 12 rounds :think that's really impressive - your amazing fighter Wills did really well there didn't he???? Had to settle for a points win against the completely incapable Firpo hey???? Doesn't say a great deal for Wills' chances to me?? How many times did Wills floor Firpo ?? :think

Carp?? Beat Joe Jeanette on points who... oooh Wills managed a points win against??? :roll: No a million miles away from each other then

Brennan was manhandled by Norfolk - oh well he definately didn't deserve a shot then - obviously because Tom Gibbons TKO'd Norfolk in 6 rounds flat!!??

How many times had Wills been Kayoed in his career by that time again?? How many times had Brennan?? Oh once??? By who?? Oh Dempsey?? Oh right?

How many times had Miske been kayoed by the time of Dempsey getting him a shot?? oh never?? How many times had Wills already been knocked spark out??? With one punch each time by a former middleweight??:think
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Wills dominated Firpo and handled him like a baby. Is that less impressive than going two life and death rounds with a completely unskilled opponent and coming within friendly push from losing your title? By the way Wills dominated Firpo 86 years ago today. Wills knocked Firpo down in the second round and staggered him throughout the fight and Firpo best shots had no effect on Wills. The papers said that Wills was the harder puncher.

When did Carp beat Jeannette? He lost on points to Jeanette in 1914. Even if he had beaten him, which he hadnt, that was SEVEN years before he fought Dempsey. Do we award fighters title shots based on what they did seven years ago?

From your argument I can tell you have no understanding of the word context. Gibbons KOd Norfolk in late 1924 when Norfolk was already half blind and beginning to fade greatly. The Brennan fight was in 1920, four years EARLIER the Gibbons fight was in 1923 a year and half earlier. You dont award fights over other people based on what they MIGHT accomplish. Yes in 1920 Norfolk manhandled Brennan in training for the Dempsey fight. Brennan went on to lead on points before being stopped in the 12th by Dempsey. He wobbled Dempsey badly in the second and nearly tore his ear from his head with a punch in the tenth or eleventh round. In 1921 Doc Kearns put a call out for sparring partners for Dempsey while training for Carpentier. Kid Norfolk and Greb announced that they were on their way and when they arrived Kearns promptly decided they had enough sparring partners... In early 1922 Norfolk and Wills fought for the black HW championship in a fight that was billed by Rickard as an eliminator. Wills destroyed Norfolk in two rounds.

It doesnt matter how many wins or losses a guy has on his record. If he is the legitimate number one contender through legitimate means. That is a flimsy argument and one that as stated above is being used to either hide bias, or ignorance.

Who gives a **** if Miske had never been knocked out. He didnt deserve a shot period. He was dying, Dempsey and Kearns knew it, and most insiders knew it. I have articles from over a year PRIOR to the Dempsey Miske fight which discuss his then mysterious illness and the possibility that he would never fight again. The camp reports talk about Miske's drawn appearance and oddly grey skin tone. And for those who say Dempsey was doing the charitable thing (which frankly is no argument for choosing one opponent who isnt worthy over one who is) Tell me how charitable it is for a guy like Dempsey who knew Miske had kidney ailment to be working him over with hellacious body punches... They took an easy shot and thats that.

How many times had Carpentier been stopped? How many times had he lost? Hell Carpentier had been stopped by men a lot less formidible than Langford. Hell, Willie Lewis kicked the living **** out of Carpentier, go look up Lewis' record and tell me thats a confidence inspiring "victory" by Carp who need all the judges help he could get to win that fight. How about Gibbons and Miske losing to middleweights? Or Tunney for that matter? A middleweight who couldnt punch. Sorry but your arguments dont hold water, in no instance in Dempsey's reign can you come up with a legitimate argument for him chosing the defenses he did over Wills.

Furthermore that ex middleweight was a guy who at the same time that Wills was losing to him Dempsey refused to fight out of fear (which he readily admitted). So Wills lost to a guy Dempsey was scared to fight and then came back and defeated MULTIPLE times.

Its not about what you have done its about what you have done lately. When Brennan was announced as Dempsey's opponent several venues banned the match because he was deemed unfit. Brennan had done absolutely nothing in the two years prior to fighting Dempsey that would redeem his reputation as a title challenger except losing every round he fought to a middleweight in 45 rounds... The match was delayed because of the difficulty in finding a venue. So, Kearns and Dempsey turned to Miske.

Miske had retired from the ring the previous year after losing a newspaper decision to Battling Levinsky due to his kidney ailment. He was told by his doctors that fighting would increase the rate of his degeneration. In the year and half prior to fighting Dempsey he had one bout which was a non descript tuneup bout against Jack Moran that lasted less than two rounds.

After defeating Dempsey in a match that was trumped by its undercard and Dempsey's sparring sessions with Greb (most were unanimous that Greb would have fared better against the champ than Miske) Dempsey tried to arrange a fight with Gunboat Smith. This is laughable as a Smith was shot at this point and had nothing left. No one would let Dempsey fight Smith unless he proved his right to fight Dempsey so Smith fought Greb who was being talked of as Dempsey's leading white american contender. Greb knocked Smith out in a single round which ought to show you how difficult Dempsey wanted his opponents...

Around this time Carpentier was also being promoted as a challenger for Dempsey. He was brought over to the states for an exhibition tour which would drum up interest in a Dempsey bout and familiarize the fans with a man they had only seen in photographs. The tour met with lukewarm reception and skepticism so Rickard had to brainstorm a way to get Carpentier some legitimate clout in the United States to make this bout with Dempsey the first Million Dollar Gate, which had always been his goal. At this point most people had forgotten Levinsky's claim to the light heavyweight division (which was lightly regarded to begin with) and even Levinsky seemed content to merely travel around fighting no decision matches for relatively small purses around the country in workmanlike fashion. He had been losing or struggling with the best fighters he faced for years now. Suddenly he got the call from Rickard for the Carpentier fight and the old LHW championship was dragged out of the closet and a big ballyhoo started by Rickard for a Levinsky-Carpentier match that would be an eliminator to Dempsey. That was all fine and dandy except Levinsky showed up to the fight amid rumors of a predetermined Carpentier win with paunch, knee brace, and double chin. When the fight ended in the fourth round a loud groan went up from the audience. If nothing else at this point in his career Levinsky was still durable and a master at defense. An investigation was started into the fix but was quickly squashed by political interests close to Rickard. Suddenly Carpentier was a champion and the only man other than Dempsey to stop Levinsky... convenient. The ruse had to be upheld though and it was thought that once people began arriving at Carpentier's summer training quarters for the Dempsey fight they would see that Carpentier was in reality no match for Dempsey. Carpentiers camp was closed and the only press that got in or out was during tightly controlled media events where sparring sessions were choreographed to show Carpentier at best, despite the fact that his opponents numbered an old balding retired Joe Jeannette and a comically fat little man who was actually Georges camp cook...

The Firpo story is interesting as well and I wont go into all of the details but Rickard had gotten wind of Firpo through his business interests in South America and imported him to the United States with the sole purpose of building him up as a foreign boogey man to face Dempsey for the championship. What you are talking about here is basically the professional wrestlingization of boxing. Firpo was literally PROMOTED to a title a shot by being matched with a stream of has beens in heavily promoted fights to build his profile: Bill Brennan, Charlie Weinert (who later avenge his loss to Firpo), Jess Willard (who had comically been trying to get a rematch with Dempsey for years). Rickards plan worked and the promotion was a smash success. He tried the same thing with Quintin Romero Rojas but Rojas had more difficulty with the retreads, has beens, and never weres that he was matched with and was eventually left his own designs where his record greatly faltered.

So, theres a little context for you.
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klompton, Sep 11, 2010

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RockysSplitNose Boxing Junkie Full Member

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klompton said: ↑

RockysSplitNose said: ↑

Wills dominated Firpo and handled him like a baby. Is that less impressive than going two life and death rounds with a completely unskilled opponent and coming within friendly push from losing your title? By the way Wills dominated Firpo 86 years ago today. Wills knocked Firpo down in the second round and staggered him throughout the fight and Firpo best shots had no effect on Wills. The papers said that Wills was the harder puncher.

When did Carp beat Jeannette? He lost on points to Jeanette in 1914. Even if he had beaten him, which he hadnt, that was SEVEN years before he fought Dempsey. Do we award fighters title shots based on what they did seven years ago?

How many times had Carpentier been stopped? How many times had he lost? Hell Carpentier had been stopped by men a lot less formidible than Langford. Hell, Willie Lewis kicked the living **** out of Carpentier, go look up Lewis' record and tell me thats a confidence inspiring "victory" by Carp who need all the judges help he could get to win that fight. How about Gibbons and Miske losing to middleweights? Or Tunney for that matter? A middleweight who couldnt punch. Sorry but your arguments dont hold water, in no instance in Dempsey's reign can you come up with a legitimate argument for him chosing the defenses he did over Wills.

Furthermore that ex middleweight was a guy who at the same time that Wills was losing to him Dempsey refused to fight out of fear (which he readily admitted). So Wills lost to a guy Dempsey was scared to fight and then came back and defeated MULTIPLE times.

Its not about what you have done its about what you have done lately. When Brennan was announced as Dempsey's opponent several venues banned the match because he was deemed unfit. Brennan had done absolutely nothing in the two years prior to fighting Dempsey that would redeem his reputation as a title challenger except losing every round he fought to a middleweight in 45 rounds... The match was delayed because of the difficulty in finding a venue. So, Kearns and Dempsey turned to Miske.

Miske had retired from the ring the previous year after losing a newspaper decision to Battling Levinsky due to his kidney ailment. He was told by his doctors that fighting would increase the rate of his degeneration. In the year and half prior to fighting Dempsey he had one bout which was a non descript tuneup bout against Jack Moran that lasted less than two rounds.

After defeating Dempsey in a match that was trumped by its undercard and Dempsey's sparring sessions with Greb (most were unanimous that Greb would have fared better against the champ than Miske) Dempsey tried to arrange a fight with Gunboat Smith. This is laughable as a Smith was shot at this point and had nothing left. No one would let Dempsey fight Smith unless he proved his right to fight Dempsey so Smith fought Greb who was being talked of as Dempsey's leading white american contender. Greb knocked Smith out in a single round which ought to show you how difficult Dempsey wanted his opponents...

So, theres a little context for you.
Click to expand...

NO.1 - If you're hoping to impress in trying to get Dempsey in the ring then going 12 rounds with a guy Dempsey had already obliterated in 1 and half rounds (after having them down in the 2nd) is defintaely not going to impress - how you can insinuate that Wills' result against Firpo was more impressive than Dempsey's is a complete joke - ps I very much doubt Wills 'handled him like a baby' - sorry mate but Wills just wasn't that good - he got blasted out by Uzcudun (looking pretty fragile all told in that one) aswell as being beaten by another (old) Dempsey victim - the prime Sharkey. Wills may have been a better technician as far as correct punching goes but he was simply not a more powerful puncher than Firpo.

NO.2 Carp did beat Jeannette - I guess you think Holyfield drew with Lennox Lewis in their first fight too then??? the next day the Auto had a 3 column banner headline "A SCANDALOUS DECISION" - when the decision was rendered the Luna Park crowd went into riot and wrecked the Luna Park pretty badly - the papers called the decision bewildering- Carp dominated that one from the start - flooring Jeannette in the 1st round and gave him a thorough drubbing over the 12 - Jeannette was close to being disqualified on 3 occassions for fouling in desperation -that's how bad he was getting beaten - when the riot was calmed and Carp was later leaving the arena he was cheered by the crowds who had stayed on outside the arena.- SO YEAH I'M PRETTY CERTAIN THAT CARP DID BEAT JEANNETTE And yeah we damn sure do factor that into a title shot 7 years later for sure - why wouldn't you????? :huh Only one of his best career wins??
PS from 1912 to the time of Carps fight against Dempsey - this was Carp only "defeat" (if you can call it that) - what were you saying about recent history of challengers???

No.3 About your point about not awarding people fights on what they might do down the line - I'm not actually arguing that I'm merely saying in hindsight Wills wasn't all that great anyway while the people Dempsey did face in defence of his title did actually have equally impressive results of their own anyway - certainly comparable with anything Wills might have done anyhow

No 4 To me a guy who has never been kayoed has a more legimate basis for a claim to deserve a title shot - yes people have ups and downs in their careers and ebbs and flows but when a contender is put forward for a shot at the title and he's already been sparked out cold twice already in his career I usually have pretty high doubts about whether he can really cope coming back from things like that.

no5 If you call me biased just for beleiving that one fighter would beat another then you're fully correct in that??? Aren't you biased in favour of Wills???? What's the beef???

NO.6 Miske was given a payday as a favour - end off - was just making that point that again when on song he was a very good fighter in his own right and may very well have got a shot anyway had he been completely healthy anyway but thats by the by

No.7 That middleweight who blasted Wills uncocious twice (when virtually blind himself) was also beaten by Fred Fulton - who got sparked in 14 seconds - methinks Dempsey was just being a true gentleman and totally gracious in saying that he was terrified of Langford - the man had a lot of respect for Sam as everyone did but the allround round robin results show Dempsey was certainly in the same class...well actually the results it could be argued show that Dempsey was top of the tree

No.8 I really couldn't care less about stories, rumours, news papers reporting this and that - they print bull all the time anyway - even more so in those days - basically all I need to do is watch the films to get a feel for who I would favour in certain matches - even though we only have limited footage of an old Wills - the footage I've seen of Wills leaves me with the immediate feeling that he didn't have a great chin was pretty straight up and held his hands low - and for his size didn't look particularly strong or aggressive and some of his results leave me with serious doubts as to whether he was as good as some make out - if he could've beat Dempsey then to me at the very least he needs to be doing a much better job against Firpo for instance and even towards the end of his career he definately doesn't need to be getting knocked out pretty easily by Uzcudun - he looked really shitty in that one I'm afraid - to me a prime Demps obliterates him style wise and everything else wise - he should've got a shot sure but I'm not really arguing against him getting a shot I'm just saying a really don't think he would've lasted very long in the ring with Dempsey anyway - and if the fight had've happened the myth of Harry Wills would've become a mere footnote. That's context
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RockysSplitNose, Sep 12, 2010

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RockysSplitNose said: ↑

klompton said: ↑

NO.1 - If you're hoping to impress in trying to get Dempsey in the ring then going 12 rounds with a guy Dempsey had already obliterated in 1 and half rounds (after having them down in the 2nd) is defintaely not going to impress - how you can insinuate that Wills' result against Firpo was more impressive than Dempsey's is a complete joke - ps I very much doubt Wills 'handled him like a baby' - sorry mate but Wills just wasn't that good - he got blasted out by Uzcudun (looking pretty fragile all told in that one) aswell as being beaten by another (old) Dempsey victim - the prime Sharkey. Wills may have been a better technician as far as correct punching goes but he was simply not a more powerful puncher than Firpo.

NO.2 Carp did beat Jeannette - I guess you think Holyfield drew with Lennox Lewis in their first fight too then??? the next day the Auto had a 3 column banner headline "A SCANDALOUS DECISION" - when the decision was rendered the Luna Park crowd went into riot and wrecked the Luna Park pretty badly - the papers called the decision bewildering- Carp dominated that one from the start - flooring Jeannette in the 1st round and gave him a thorough drubbing over the 12 - Jeannette was close to being disqualified on 3 occassions for fouling in desperation -that's how bad he was getting beaten - when the riot was calmed and Carp was later leaving the arena he was cheered by the crowds who had stayed on outside the arena.- SO YEAH I'M PRETTY CERTAIN THAT CARP DID BEAT JEANNETTE And yeah we damn sure do factor that into a title shot 7 years later for sure - why wouldn't you????? :huh Only one of his best career wins??
PS from 1912 to the time of Carps fight against Dempsey - this was Carp only "defeat" (if you can call it that) - what were you saying about recent history of challengers???

No.3 About your point about not awarding people fights on what they might do down the line - I'm not actually arguing that I'm merely saying in hindsight Wills wasn't all that great anyway while the people Dempsey did face in defence of his title did actually have equally impressive results of their own anyway - certainly comparable with anything Wills might have done anyhow

No 4 To me a guy who has never been kayoed has a more legimate basis for a claim to deserve a title shot - yes people have ups and downs in their careers and ebbs and flows but when a contender is put forward for a shot at the title and he's already been sparked out cold twice already in his career I usually have pretty high doubts about whether he can really cope coming back from things like that.

no5 If you call me biased just for beleiving that one fighter would beat another then you're fully correct in that??? Aren't you biased in favour of Wills???? What's the beef???

NO.6 Miske was given a payday as a favour - end off - was just making that point that again when on song he was a very good fighter in his own right and may very well have got a shot anyway had he been completely healthy anyway but thats by the by

No.7 That middleweight who blasted Wills uncocious twice (when virtually blind himself) was also beaten by Fred Fulton - who got sparked in 14 seconds - methinks Dempsey was just being a true gentleman and totally gracious in saying that he was terrified of Langford - the man had a lot of respect for Sam as everyone did but the allround round robin results show Dempsey was certainly in the same class...well actually the results it could be argued show that Dempsey was top of the tree

No.8 I really couldn't care less about stories, rumours, news papers reporting this and that - they print bull all the time anyway - even more so in those days - basically all I need to do is watch the films to get a feel for who I would favour in certain matches - even though we only have limited footage of an old Wills - the footage I've seen of Wills leaves me with the immediate feeling that he didn't have a great chin was pretty straight up and held his hands low - and for his size didn't look particularly strong or aggressive and some of his results leave me with serious doubts as to whether he was as good as some make out - if he could've beat Dempsey then to me at the very least he needs to be doing a much better job against Firpo for instance and even towards the end of his career he definately doesn't need to be getting knocked out pretty easily by Uzcudun - he looked really shitty in that one I'm afraid - to me a prime Demps obliterates him style wise and everything else wise - he should've got a shot sure but I'm not really arguing against him getting a shot I'm just saying a really don't think he would've lasted very long in the ring with Dempsey anyway - and if the fight had've happened the myth of Harry Wills would've become a mere footnote. That's context
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Wills did handle Firpo like a baby and you can go back and research that but BUT lets just assume that all he did was beat Firpo in a bland 12 rounder. Is it your contention that Firpo somehow deserved a shot at Dempsey ahead of Wills? A guy who already been Dempsey's top contender for yrs. Like I said, you go back and read the reports, you may not believe that Wills was capable of dominating Firpo but thats just what he did. He knocked him down and won every round hitting harder and taking Firpo's best shots when Firpo was able to land without ever breaking the smile he wore on his face throughout the entire fight. Youre problem is you are basing your opinion of Wills on the only footage you have ever seen of him which is when he is damn near 40 years old. How did Ali look at that stage of his career? Would you have ever thought he was capable of what he accomplished had you only seen his last fight against Berbick or Holmes?

So it is your contention, based on a Parisian sports magazine that Jeannette, an african american fighter got a gift decision over a french superstar in what was now his hometown? Riiiight. Furthermore, Carpentier did not dominate Jeanette. The newspaper reports make it very clear that Jeannette had his moments and at worst it was a close fight. Period. Regardless of that fact is it your contention that Carpentier deserved a shot at Dempsey above Wills? I find it humorous that you are so outraged at the Carpentier Jeanette decision and then go on to state that from 1912 until 1921 it was Carpentiers only loss yet omit his gift win over Gunboat Smith and the fact that in those SEVEN years from 1914 to 1921 he only fought twelve fights against decidedly poor competition and the only notable victory barring the Smith fiasco was his fixed fight against Levinsky. Indeed from his last loss in 1912 to Papke (who was well past his best) to his fight with Dempsey he fought only 3 world class fighters: Jeff Smith ( a close controversial decision for Carp), Joe Jeanette (a loss), Gunboat Smith (a controversial DQ win), and Levinsky (a fixed fight). But its your contention that he deserved to get a shot at the HW title above Wills... Sounds like maybe you just like the idea of throwing one of your heros softballs so he can knock them out of the park and look good for you.

So you think a guy with a glossy undefeated record and no losses or KOs on his record deserves a shot at a title above a guy who may have a spotty record in the past but has since had several impressive and notworthy performances? Like I said, you must be a huge Mayweather fan because thats his argument to a T. You are obviously a product of the modern era and have very little understanding of the sport in its golden eras when it was actually based on real competition and not how well promoted you are... oh wait your fan of Dempsey's so i guess that explains it.

Nothing you have said is context. Look up the meaning of the word. Its all your opinion and based largely on ignorance of the facts of the time. As I said before this argument can be summed up by you answering one question: Do you honestly believe Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, and Firpo deserved a shot at Dempsey ahead of Wills? Its a simple question. I can see giving Dempsey a setup here and there but the guy made a reign out of fighting men who hadnt done **** to earn a shot at the HW title while his top challenger sat by and fought tooth and nail to get his shot. Do you deny this simple fact? A dying man, a guy who Dempsey had already beaten fairly easily and who in his only noteworthy fights in the two yrs leading up to his title shot was getting dominated by a middleweight, a LHW who had to have a fix to get him a LHW title just to add some legitimacy to his challenge and who was so undermatched that he trained in a closed camp so people wouldnt see how poor a challenger he was, a guy who had lost his only title eliminator in a one sided decision loss to a middleweight, and a big strong unskilled wild swinging brawler who was literally imported to america to be slaughtered by Dempsey like one of Rickards cattle from the Argentinian Pampas. If that is your idea of a great set of defenses then you my friend are simply bowing to hero worship and not really looking at the big picture.
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klompton, Sep 12, 2010

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klompton Boxing Addict banned

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how do i post pics?

klompton, Sep 12, 2010

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TBomb 25 Well-Known Member Full Member

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These 2 1st off to shut up all the Duran fans

Pryor/Duran
Arguello/Duran
Hearns/McCallum
McCallum/Hagler
Hearns/Hagler II
McCallum/Duran
McCallum/R.Leonard
Curry/Leonard
McCallum/Nunn
Paige/Holmes
Pryor/Mancini
Camacho/Whitaker
Sanchez/Arguello
Bramble/Pryor
R.Wayweather/Camacho
Pryor/H.Davis Jr
Leonard/Pryor
Moorer/Hill
Benitez/Cuevas
Cuevas/Pryor
Benitez/McCallum
Roldan/Duran
Duran/Mugabi
Hearns/Mugabi
Nunn/Hearns
.....there's so many sanerios out of this class its enough for the greatest boxing that would last centuries!

TBomb 25, Sep 13, 2010

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AlFrancis Boxing Junkie Full Member

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Rose-Famechon
How this one never happened I'll never know. Would of been the biggest fight in Australian boxing history.

AlFrancis, Sep 13, 2010

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RockysSplitNose Boxing Junkie Full Member

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klompton said: ↑

RockysSplitNose said: ↑

Wills did handle Firpo like a baby and you can go back and research that but BUT lets just assume that all he did was beat Firpo in a bland 12 rounder. Is it your contention that Firpo somehow deserved a shot at Dempsey ahead of Wills? A guy who already been Dempsey's top contender for yrs. Like I said, you go back and read the reports, you may not believe that Wills was capable of dominating Firpo but thats just what he did. He knocked him down and won every round hitting harder and taking Firpo's best shots when Firpo was able to land without ever breaking the smile he wore on his face throughout the entire fight. Youre problem is you are basing your opinion of Wills on the only footage you have ever seen of him which is when he is damn near 40 years old. How did Ali look at that stage of his career? Would you have ever thought he was capable of what he accomplished had you only seen his last fight against Berbick or Holmes?

So it is your contention, based on a Parisian sports magazine that Jeannette, an african american fighter got a gift decision over a french superstar in what was now his hometown? Riiiight. Furthermore, Carpentier did not dominate Jeanette. The newspaper reports make it very clear that Jeannette had his moments and at worst it was a close fight. Period. Regardless of that fact is it your contention that Carpentier deserved a shot at Dempsey above Wills? I find it humorous that you are so outraged at the Carpentier Jeanette decision and then go on to state that from 1912 until 1921 it was Carpentiers only loss yet omit his gift win over Gunboat Smith and the fact that in those SEVEN years from 1914 to 1921 he only fought twelve fights against decidedly poor competition and the only notable victory barring the Smith fiasco was his fixed fight against Levinsky. Indeed from his last loss in 1912 to Papke (who was well past his best) to his fight with Dempsey he fought only 3 world class fighters: Jeff Smith ( a close controversial decision for Carp), Joe Jeanette (a loss), Gunboat Smith (a controversial DQ win), and Levinsky (a fixed fight). But its your contention that he deserved to get a shot at the HW title above Wills... Sounds like maybe you just like the idea of throwing one of your heros softballs so he can knock them out of the park and look good for you.

So you think a guy with a glossy undefeated record and no losses or KOs on his record deserves a shot at a title above a guy who may have a spotty record in the past but has since had several impressive and notworthy performances? Like I said, you must be a huge Mayweather fan because thats his argument to a T. You are obviously a product of the modern era and have very little understanding of the sport in its golden eras when it was actually based on real competition and not how well promoted you are... oh wait your fan of Dempsey's so i guess that explains it.

Nothing you have said is context. Look up the meaning of the word. Its all your opinion and based largely on ignorance of the facts of the time. As I said before this argument can be summed up by you answering one question: Do you honestly believe Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Gibbons, and Firpo deserved a shot at Dempsey ahead of Wills? Its a simple question. I can see giving Dempsey a setup here and there but the guy made a reign out of fighting men who hadnt done **** to earn a shot at the HW title while his top challenger sat by and fought tooth and nail to get his shot. Do you deny this simple fact? A dying man, a guy who Dempsey had already beaten fairly easily and who in his only noteworthy fights in the two yrs leading up to his title shot was getting dominated by a middleweight, a LHW who had to have a fix to get him a LHW title just to add some legitimacy to his challenge and who was so undermatched that he trained in a closed camp so people wouldnt see how poor a challenger he was, a guy who had lost his only title eliminator in a one sided decision loss to a middleweight, and a big strong unskilled wild swinging brawler who was literally imported to america to be slaughtered by Dempsey like one of Rickards cattle from the Argentinian Pampas. If that is your idea of a great set of defenses then you my friend are simply bowing to hero worship and not really looking at the big picture.
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Klompton

No.1 I never once said that Wills didn't deserve a shot - he did I've always said that - the point was I thought Dempsey would knock out Wills in double quick time so????

No.2 I never said Firpo deserved a shot 'ahead' of Wills - I was just countering your argument that Firpo was a pile of horsesh1t - but yet he managed to go 12 with your precious Wills.

no.3 I am a huge Mayweather fan - he is the best fighter in the world - the people he chooses to fight and when he chooses to fight then don't affect that - no ones going to beat him anyway - aside from maybe PAC Man

no.4 you sound like one of those modern fans who's had his brain washed by the first thing you read about Wills when you were 10 and you never changed your opinion on it and you also seem to think that any black fighter of the past who actually got beat by a white fighter only lost because of a dodgy decision or some kind of biase or 101 other reasons to back up your idea - when any white fighter beats a black fighter pre-Joe Louis you think its a stitch up job - black fighters were the same then as they were in all the subsequent eras as were white fighters - you seem to think they were just completely untouchable which is just mythology
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RockysSplitNose, Sep 13, 2010

#73
manbearpig A Scottish Noob Full Member

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Hopkins vs someone elite and in their prime who wasn't disadvantaged in some way.

manbearpig, Sep 13, 2010

#74
bigjake Active Member Full Member

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chuvalo vs, shavers
chuvalo vs. liston

bigjake, Sep 13, 2010

#75

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