Cleveland Williams vs George Chuvalo: Prime for Prime

You were using those fights as a gauge of Williams weaknesses.... He had 3 wins against that group and one disputed loss.

So let me get this straight. According to you, Liston wasn't "much past it" against Leotis Martin despite being 39 minimum, likely older. Williams showed no noticeable difference after being shot upon his return at the age of 33 but Miteff was "a used up punching bag" at the ripe old age of 26.....

I'll have some of what you're having.

Now Williams is 50-50 against men he'd decisively beaten. Deedes was right. At a certain point, you stop trying and just start throwing **** at the walls to see what sticks.

 

1. We've already been through this. You should really start taking your pills for your memory issues. I'm not going to continue to tell you the same thing over and over again. Williams had no amateur career whatsoever. Both Frazier, and Ingo had surpassed 34 fights before even turning pro.

2. Williams had 37 bouts total. Satterfield had 52 pro bouts. Satterfield also had a stellar amateur career and was a golden gloves champion.

Now Miteff is more dangerous than Satterfield? How the hell did Williams manhandle someone that? Jesus, I've been underrating Williams all these years. Thank you for bringing it to my attention!

You realize he fought Williams and Chuvalo back to back right? In other words they both faced the same version, and one did substantially better than the other.

Williams dominated and stopped Miteff in five.

Chuvalo struggled into just barely taking a thin as you can get SD by a HALF point in his hometown, where the referee failed to deduct a point for a low blow, which would've made Miteff the winner.

My point is, if Miteff was as declined as you're making him out to be, and Chuvalo still couldn't beat him fairly, you've actually proven my theory wrong. Miteff isn't on equal ground with Chuvalo as I previously thought. He's a rung or two above! Thank you for educating me on this subject!

 

I think its important to mention that a prime Cleve had a unrivaled physique, his surgeons remarked that not only did he have the greatest physique they'd ever seen but it may have been a large factor in his recovery, and even after the shooting he rebuilt this physique from the ground up to continue his career. If anything can be said Cleve, he was a determined fighter, and like you said in his match with Terrell he displayed stamina. Cleve would not easily submit to Chuvalo, and I cannot see Chuvalo putting him down.

 

I agree. Doctors said he lost enough blood to kill 6 men. Somewhat unrelated, when my favorite rapper Tupac Shakur succumbed to his wounds, his doctor stated he'd never seen anyone "recover" from that injury to the degree he had, nor survive as long as he did.

Nothing short of miraculous. Even if he wasn't half the fighter when he returned.

I agree. Honestly, I'd go as far as to say, Williams is more likely to put Chuvalo down than vice versa.

 

I despise the comparisons made between Williams and Liston, they're just two very different fighters and I think it is the detriment to both of them to make the comparison. Williams was not a second rate fighter, he isn't world class, but he was a formidable opponent in the ring. Williams had a heart that Liston did not, what other fighter can be mortally shot and return to the ring two years later, obviously faded, and still find some success.

Machen said of Williams that his speed made him a dangerous fighter, something he felt Liston didn't have and I feel that isn't brought up enough.

 

at a level below championship class as it stood during the early 1960d

. Yeah that’s comparable to your man crush Williams. About that time they had the exact same number of wins. Though it was a different level. Your guy was fighting guys called graveyard Walters and baby booze

only in relation Chuvalo. Why would he be concerned with a little guy ten years older? Nobody knocked him out.

only in relation to Chuvalo. Nobody knocked him out.

only Chuvalo was the same age as Williams when light heavyweights knocked him out.

miteff was potentially a good guy. Badly managed. He probably would have lost less fights and made more money had he been matched like Williams.

This does seem to be the case. Critism of Williams seems to be unpopular among body building fans… but the truth is Williams was very brave. I cannot knock him for being a stand up guy. He always tried to get up.

 

What's the secret to deciphering online who is and who isn't a body building fan chok? It must be a fair talent.

I'm guessing you would apply the label to anyone and everyone talking Williams up?

 

Well It is difficult to see what else the attraction toward Williams as this elite force can be.

Because in relation to the whole entire history of the Heavyweight rankings I cannot comprehend such support.

I guess Williams has become a cult figure. people like his story. The bravery he showed..and the moment he had with Sonny Liston before he was demolished.

It eclipses support for Tami Mauriello as a would be champion for wobbling Joe Louis or even the much celebrated Henry Cooper for decking Ali. Whilst Henry became a cult figure because of it..nobody really pushes this as a legacy qualifier against other champions.

It cannot be the incredible recovery from gunshots that provide extra magnetism to Williams image since this did nothing for Jeff Simms or a bunch of other boxers who survived Similar shootings. Even if some of them were almost as muscular..

I can only surmise it is the physical image and tall muscular stature of the “Big Cat” that is indeed most important to much of his fans.

 

Manuel Charr was shot four times in the stomach and came back. Ron Lyle was stabbed to death in prison, was revived on the operating table after his heart had stopped ... all before his first fight.

The Cleveland Williams fixation seems more than a tad bit gay. Lots of fawning over his build, not so much his actual wins.

Chuvalo wasn't exactly at the peak of his career when he faced Williams, either. Chuvalo was in his 83rd pro fight.

I don't see why George wouldn't have won any time they would've fought.

 

I have a better idea, create Cleveland Williams vs "Bonecrusher" Smith thread. This should be fun

 

It goes the distance.

 

I see people are pitching the idea that being blown open by a .357 magnum is a poor excuse for a subpar performance in the ring. After all, other fighters have been injured and come back, right?

What happened to Williams was not just another injury. He lost a kidney and a chunk of small intestine. The bullet was permanently lodged in his hip. He spent five months in hospital, enduring repeated operations to stitch his bowels back together, and it was more than a year before he was well enough to resume training.

This article from six months after the shooting describes him as a shadow of his old self, still unable to lift any significant weight without pain, and with no idea how he was going to fund yet another operation to remove the drainage tube from his stomach.

https://pasteboard.co/z7oK2XkujS9z.jpg

 

My point which seems to escape you (you seem to be having difficulties keeping up) is that you said Williams showed weaknesses against those men despite having a 3-1 record (many would argue 4-0 or 3-0-1).

.

1. I am a grown man. I don't have a man crush on Williams nor anyone else.

2. I was referring to Williams having 37 fights... you seem to be arguing with yourself.

Williams was not knocked out against anyone except Satterfield and Foster, and he wasn't prime for any of these bouts.

Except he'd been boxing for years, since he was a child and had a stellar amateur career becoming heavyweight champion of Canada. Williams literally didn't have a quarter of that experience.

He was a level above Chuvalo, I'll grant you that. But the reason he wasn't "matched like Williams" was because he simply wasn't on his level. This doesn't even have anything to do with their bout. Against common opponents, at the time here were their result.

Alonzo Johnson: Miteff won a thin decision with one judge scoring the bout 5-5 in rounds.... Williams knocked Johnson out in a single round without taking one punch in return.

Eddie Machen:
"Heavyweight contender Eddie Machen, who wilted Alex Miteff at his own body-punching game, planned three more matches today as stepping stones toward a title fight. In their rough fight, Machen wore down Miteff and gave him such a terrific battering in the last three rounds that Alex - with blood dribbling from his mouth - was groggy and on the verge of a kayo at times." -United Press International

• Unofficial UPI scorecard - 7-3 Machen
• Unofficial AP scorecard - 8-2 Machen

Williams on the other hand did much better against Machen. Holding him to a draw. A majority draw actually. 2 judges had it a draw while the third had Williams clearly ahead.

"Williams the no. 5 contender felt he had turned in an upset. Most of the crowd of 10,000 partial perhaps to the hometown favorite and one judge agreed."

Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48465177/the-news-review/

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996351/the-fresno-bee/ Williams nearly floors Machen here.

“Cleve can punch and he’s fast for a big man. He’s twice as fast as Liston I had to keep on him keep on him keep pressing and keep him from getting set” Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/68996756/the-sacramento-bee/

"Machen said Williams was twice as fast as Sonny Liston" Source: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/76953678/the-charlotte-news/

 

And some people seem to think being stabbed in prison and actually dying on the operating table, only to be brought back to life ... AND, only after recovering, taking up the sport of boxing and winning the National Amateur championship and fighting for the world title ... like Ron Lyle ... was no big deal.

Or some people think being shot four times in the belly and coming back to win a WBA belt ... was not only not a big deal but that fellow should be a guy we should all make fun of because the WBA and all its belts suck.

Everyone knows Williams got shot. We all know the drill. We all read the stories. We get it. You're not springing anything new on us.

He wasn't shot in the stomach, and then he got in the ring five minutes later and fought while bleeding from the gunshot wounds. He recovered from the shooting and then he got back in the ring.

Lots of fighters have been shot. Fighters have been in airplane crashes. Fighters got part of their leg amputated and came back. Fighters were involved in high speed car crashes ... and came back. Fighters actually fought while legally blind, or with a broken neck, or while having a heart attack, or with their arm dislocated, or with two broken hands. Fighters actually continued to fight as they had already begun dying from a brain bleed, listened to the verdict, walked out of the ring and collapsed.

What many of us don't get is the fawning over a guy who was "just a contender" before he got shot and was "just a contender" afterward.

It's a bit much.

 

To be fair, the only people who are suggesting such a thing are dubblechin, and chok. Two notorious trolls. The former of whom knows absolutely nothing about boxing.


Dubblechin said: ↑
You're wrong about Wilder. Comically wrong. He's an all-time great. He'll be a first ballot Hall of Famer. He's making his 10th consecutive defense next. Some of you guys aren't the brightest bulbs, clearly. Some day you'll catch up.

There's always a straggler on the bandwagon.

Dubblechin said: ↑
I can recognize an all-timer when I see one. Wilder is an all-timer. I've been following boxing since the 1970s ... I've never seen a heavyweight in that time like him.

Dubblechin said: ↑
When Wilder stops Fury early in the rematch, Marciano-Walcott 1 and 2 will look like a Poor Man's Wilder-Fury 1 & 2.

Dubblechin said: ↑
When did I agree to that?

It was one of Wilder's worst performances. He came in way too light and his timing was off all night. Still, he threw more punches in every round but one and scored two hard knockdowns.

It was arguably Fury's best performance.

I expect Wider to finish him quicker next time.