Cleveland Williams vs Ron Lyle

He was ranked on the sole basis of his win over a very unimpressive Morrison. He was not even a trial horse type. Hell in his fight prior to Morrison, he went the distance with the 14-18 Mark Willis who himself had been knocked out by several no names. That's why Bentt was cherry picked to be Morrison's defense.

Who was Tucker ranked by? I admittedly can't find the ring ratings but here are the WBC https://www.newspapers.com/article/tampa-bay-times/128803419/ and WBA https://www.newspapers.com/article/arizona-republic/128803355/.

Their is literally zero chance Tucker who'd lost 3 of his last 5 was a top two contender.

HE WAS FOURTY ****ING YEARS OLD. Are there any depths you won't sink to?

Cute but here is my quote

Sorry your red herring attempt isn't going to work. I was referring to guys Bentt beat (I'll even settle for people he lost to) who were even semi-names PRIOR to Morrison.

Zero but he was heralded as being the next big thing in heavyweight boxing. A title also bestowed upon Billy Daniels and Eddie Machen. Williams is undefeated against these three men.

Their's not much film of his fights. Of his 62 knock outs, I believe only two of them are on film.

Yet he mysteriously made it to a number 2 ranking behind only Liston and Ali two H2H monsters.

He would've had hell of an easier time doing it, if he was also matched against guys like Craig Peterson. He also wouldn't have to get off the floor to beat him.

Do you think Hide's record of knocking out every opponent barring two, would stand had he also faced a prime Liston and Ali?
Oh wait, I forgot you also think Cooney beats Liston. Liston has no chance against Herbie Hide in that case. Is Ali 50-50?

 

This is amusing at this point. You bash Williams and his record but Mathis gets credit for only losing to Ali, Frazier, and Quarry. What top tenners did he ever beat?

Billy Daniels declined dramatically after his second bout with Williams, hence most of his late career losses. He was a solid contender prior to doing so, and unlike Mathis, actually managed a couple wins against ranked opposition.

 

Disagreed on a few points here.

1) Jimmy Young who fought Shavers for the first time (1973-02-19) was in an inconsistent part of his career where his defensive wizard style was underdeveloped and as far as I remember shunned in Philly. He lost against Clay Hodges (amateur nemesis of George Foreman) and Roy Williams, though admittedly in four rounders, and dropped a ten round decision to Randy Neumann in his debiut at that distance. After a year long layoff he lost to Shavers, and slowly began rebuilding his career and shaping himself into the slickster he would become later. It culminated in the three-bout run against lethal punchers: Garcia, Shavers, and finally Lyle.

The draw against Shavers is actually controversial. After a knockdown in the 4th he: "[..] blasted Shavers with both hands and in the last two rounds it looked like Earnie might go at any moment. The majority of those at ringside felt Young was a handy winner but the verdict was a draw. Referee Joe Cecchini gave his vote to Shavers, 46-45, while one judge saw it for Young 47-44 and the other judge had it even at 47 points each."-Cumberland Evening Times

Lyle fought Young twice, but it was a much more experienced and fully shaped Jimmy, who arguably already handed Shavers an empathetic revenge.

2) Joe Bugner who fought Lyle in '77 was rebuilding from the second Ali loss, showing a glimpse of newfound ambition and aggression via first round knockout of relatively shot-lived British rival Richard Dunn. He dropped the decision against Lyle, crushin the Brits' hopes for his redemption, and disappeared for three years before fighting 8-4 Gilbert Acuna and disappearing for two more years once again, coming back to lose against Earnie, weighing in at career high (up to that point) of 245 lbs (219, 221, 230, 229 in Ali I, Frazier, Ali II, and Lyle fights.)

3) Not much to say about Jimmy Ellis. Shot on both occassions, though its kind of a style makes fight. Lyle was in my opinion more of a boxer-puncher who could take his time, while Shavers exhibited more aggression due to the size difference (6ft Shavers v 6'2 or so Lyle) looking for that overhandright. Ellis actually hurt Shavers in the opening round and got caught after Earnie got off the ropes. Againt Lyle I'd argue he came in lighter (193) and likely had more breathing room. An opposite comparison can be draw between their losses to Quarry. Jerry blasted out Earnie in round whilst he duked it out, just like he did with Ellis a fight ago, while Lyle dropped a decision over twelve rounds.

Ellis being considered a top contender (#3 and #9 in annual the Ring ratings of '72 and '73) was relatively fictional and probably based on a streak of knockouts against absolute nobodies he fought since losing to Ali in 1971. His rating already sharply declined after losing to borth Shavers and Kirkman in 1973, and could not be justified when he failed to secure a single victory in 1974.

 

1. Regardless. Shavers still gave the exact same version of Young a close bout at the least, and if nothing else knocked him down. Lyle couldn't pick up a single round.

2. Fair point regarding Bugner.

3. Ellis was undeniably more faded against Lyle than he was against Shavers. He was in the midst of a 5 fight winless streak against the former.

Regarding Ellis being "caught", Shavers always said he feinted being hurt to sucker Ellis in.

As for the Quarry bout, I specified I was referring to common victims, not common opponents.

Their's a very real argument to be made Shavers is the better fighter than Lyle despite not being as well rounded. He did much better against similar or better versions of Young and Ellis, and on the other hand while he was more or less dominated by Holmes, he was very very close to knocking him out, something Lyle couldn't even dream of doing. It likely would've resembled his bout with Young, before being dispatched around 7 or so.

On the other hand I can't see Lyle being blasted out by Quarry in a round, nor losing to Bob ****ing Stallings in his prime.

Of the three, I consider Williams to be the superior contender. He beat more contenders than both of them and made it higher in the ratings.

He never lost to a Bob Stallings at his peak, nor was blasted out in a round by Quarry. The only times he was dispatched quickly, anywhere close to his prime were against Sonny Liston, an ATG and H2H monster. Zero shame in that.

He also was a much better boxer than Lyle imo as seen in their respective bouts with the slicksters of their era (Machen and Young).

 

SHHHHH!!!!! That doesn't fit the agenda we want to portray here.

 

BOOM!!!!!

 

Not really arguing for or against Cleveland here. Fair point about Shavers luring Ellis in, and while I don't think he was a better boxer than Lyle, I can see a case being made (earlier start, some polishing from Archie Moore, and the likes.) Lyle's chin and size could take him where Earnie would be held back by whiskers and gass tank. Would be interesting to see a discussion on their rating in the 70's.

EDIT: Albeit about Holmes: while credit must be given to the hellish punch he landed on Holmes, he was brutally stopped afterwards, and as you said lost 120-108 across the board in the first bout, picking up one round on a single scorecard IIRC.