CMV: I think Usyk beats any version of Ali

Yeah, any elite from 1940s onwards can compete in any other era, i don't buy the nonesense that boxers always get better, the reality is the body mechanics of boxing, being able to execute angles and specific positioning to get advantages over your opponent, using the most important punch the jab, bobbing, weaving, parrying, blocking, working in the clinch, all of this was understood and modernized by the 40s and 50s. Beyond a certain point there isn't any more new skills or tactics added to the game. We past that point decades ago. Usyks complex style uses a variety of movements and techniques that have been known and used since at least the 60s, with the simple version of the Soviet style being mastered by the 90s, the same style that has been used by fighters today who lost to other boxers that use basic tactics and the fundamentals. Beterbiev is very old school, very polished and excellent fundamentals, but still old school and he's the best 175 on the planet

There is no way Duran isn't elite today. People can't even make a decent tactical stylistically argument as to why Ali wouldn't be top 3 if not top 1 in todays era, and the same is for Usyk. It's very unlikely Usyk is anything less than top 3 or top 1 in the 70s. There is both nostalgia and recency bias.

 

Ken Norton and Joe Frazier never faced the best version of Ali unless you believe an athlete can be banned from practicing his or her sport in their athletic prime and come back after that hiatus the same. Ali was getting bigger and better when he was exiled. The irony of post exile Ali was his competition was better while he was worse

 

Just me personally, but I think Usyk gassed a bit during rounds 4-7 more than not having a clue.

He isn’t young and his game has pivoted on a terrific engine also but that engine is no longer what it used to be.

Proof, if you will, was Usyk gaining his second wind and taking control of the fight back part way through round 7 - but he still didn’t quite return to the stamina levels displayed in the past.

In deference to diminished stamina, I think Usyk was that much more considerably paced in the rematch - not starting anywhere near as fast as he did in the first fight.

 

I agree on the rematch. I was thinking Fury had too think soooo much and Uysk was able to push Fury back enough to the point he didn't have to be as busy. It looked like both were holding back more than the first fight. Uysk felt those uppercuts first time and we know the story about R9 for Fury.

 

There are simple ways to break a clinch. Just slip downwards. Your opponent is wearing gloves. He can't put you in a bear hug. Try it next time in the gym.

 

I won’t say necessarily simple - it’s relative to how well the opponent knows how to clinch, but I hear your point.

For one, Mike Tyson didn’t know to (nor did he even really endeavour to) break a clinch. He always looked to the ref to break he and his opponent.

However, so as not to drift from the orig. context, the false claim was that Ali’s dancing negated Frazier - but it was actually Ali’s OTT clinching/holding that stifled Joe so much more.

 

That I think is buying into Futch's narrative way too much.

The movement made a big, big difference. I agree that too much clinching was allowed, but it's now starting to get into myth territory. The above is very much off imo.

 

The problem there Boke is that I’ve watched the fight multiple times and haven’t actually read Futch’s narrative.

Myths can evolve and gain traction but I don’t think this is one of those myths - but still fair to revisit the details/facts of the fight to reaffirm or dispel.

I don’t think anyone would need to read Futch’s views to perceive that Ali’s clinching was OTT and that it actually made the biggest difference.

Even in the viewing, Ali’s propensity to clinch in the rematch is a frustrating watch.

There’s a count posted online stating that Ali initiated 133 clinches during that fight.

Again, even without having to read an exact count, one can see that Ali constantly broke the action via clinching.

Ali’s dancing and movement were relatively brief in contrast to his chief strategy of holding.

And it wasn’t always just clinching - Ali also often held Joe’s head and pushed down on his neck. Illegal but never policed by Perez.

Compare the dynamics and Frazier’s far greater successes in fights 1 and 3 when Ali didn’t/wasn’t allowed to clinch anywhere near as much as he did in the rematch.

Ali posted a performance that certainly was far removed from his prime self and capabilities - which is exactly why Ali opted to clinch/hold/push down Frazier so much in the rematch.

Btw, where are all my other brilliant posts related to a specific discussion that I CLEARLY receded from? Why did they disappear?

Did someone post something highly untoward or inexplicably complain after I withdrew from that particular discussion and after I soundly refuted a multitude of false claims? This is my first visit back to this thread since.

That’s not to mention the many “likes” I assume I lost along with those posts. Dayum!

Ah well.

 

I think Ali’s level of speed and skill would something that Usyk isn’t accustomed to after fighting big slow moving men

 

Except massive power and good speed of hand and foot. Presumably those are things that would bother Usyk if he fought Tyson.

Didn't Dubois beat AJ using the tactics you think Tyson would use vs Usyk? Relentless pressure and not giving Joshua room to box

 

I would say that the moments of movement were relatively brief compared to the clinching only in the rounds Ali lost. In the ones he won it was different.

And all clinched weren't initiated by him, many were them coming together, as is the often the case. There were a lot clinching in Tyson-Holy too, but that doesn't mean that one of them were doing all of them,.

To be clear, though, Ali did more holding than Perez should have let him get away with and it was an important part in his overall tactic. No doubt. But punching while keeping away with his movement is what won him rounds.

How the fight would have looked if Perez broke up the clinches like Mercante or Padilla is an interesting question, but we'll never know for sure.

I'll leave it at that.

 

He clinched a lot in the first fight as well didn't really help him win

 

Mike Tyson was small and explosive.

He was a switch hitter.

He had a unique, ‘Bob and weave/peak a boo’ style.

He had tremendous upper body and head movement.

He had great hand speed, with knockout power in either hand.

His style allowed him to easily slip inside of his opponents range.

He threw rapid fire combinations, to the body and head, with great uppercuts.


He was NOTHING like Daniel Dubois.


Dubois has great power.

Yet most HW’s do.

Dubois has decent speed for his size.

Yes, he presses his opponents.


But in terms of size, style, speed and technique, he fights NOTHING like Mike Tyson.

So I’m completely baffled as to why you think that they share any similarities.


Apart from both being black HW’s, they share no stylistic similarities.

 

I was watching Ali-Frazuer ll for the umpteenth time. During the action Howard Cosell quoted George Foreman as saying that he wondered why Ali didn't hold Joe from getting inside in their first fight.

 

Boke, thought you might be interested in this post IV with Frazier and Ali after the rematch.

Joe does mention the holding but that’s not my primary reason for linking the clip at this time.

I’ve linked it simply because it’s new to me, a fresh upload that I have never seen before - that’s value in itself and I want to share.

I really liked Ali’s respectful and complimentary remarks re Joe.

Muhammad being very genuine and it’s too bad Ali wasn’t always that serious and respectful toward Joe.

It’s retroactively refreshing for me to have now seen this.

Both men look quite exhausted after the 12 rounder.

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