Corbett McCoy, fixed fight, or Corbett's last big win?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by janitor, Apr 14, 2018.


  1. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    You mentioned Choynski and Holyfield. Different topics can be found in single thread. I guess point I was making is that McCoy and Choysnki ( Both Corbett opponents ) being small doesn't really wash as each man beat several bigger men, including Johnson. Do you agree with the points I made on Johnson?



    " Johnson wasn't green either. Like I said he has been fighting since 1984 ( this fight took place in 1901 ), and it was Choysnki who rode the rials to fight in his home town. It was a short fight, and Johnson was out cold. Chins really don't improve that much. Like you said Choynski wasn't durable, but he was fast and could hit. While I do think Johnson improved a bit and peaked I can not overlook how much trouble he had vs, guys who can punch with some skills that were not green.

    You could say Johnson was born at the perfect time. He cleaned up the top African American talents while they were much younger and more inexperienced, and beat the best white heavyweights when they were much older than he was and clearly past their primes. But in-between when he fought guys in their prime with good ability in Choynski, Griffin, and Hart who were not too green or old he was not so great and to me, that shows a lot.

    We never saw Johnson vs. prime versions of Langford, Jeannette, or Mcvey. He never fought GB Smith either. These matches could have been made from 1909-1914. Demand was there for them and with known promoters. Well, Johnson did have a 4 round exhibition match vs. a green Gunboat Smith in 1909 and was out in round 4, with the match halted by Johnson's manager. Johnson also pulled out of a signed contract to fight Sam Langford in 1909. I have been critical of Wilder in this forum for picking soft touches in title fights, but I think Johnson might have him beat in that department.

    By 1909, we likely agree Johnson was at his best. Yet the young champion had a shaky year.

    O'Brien, past his best and much smaller went six rounds with Johnson, and some primary sources felt O"Brien was the better. Johnson nearly had 40+ Pounds on O'brien.

    GunBoat novice, had him out in a 4 round exhibition match.

    Ketchel a middle weight floored Johnson and had him dazed. While Johnson won it, he says he was hurt, and the press agrees. Again, Ketchel wasn't very skill and was a middle weight and didn't not land much before the final round.

    And finally he pulled out of a signed deal to met Langford in 1909. Based on the three performances I'm talking about, Langford had an excellent chance to be the next lineal champion had they fought. "
     
  2. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Griffin was past his best by the time he fought Martin. His prime was in the 1890's.

    If the question was, who did better vs. Jack Johnson between Griffin and Martin, the answer is Griffin as he beat him one, and drew 2 times without losing.

    I don't think the Hart fight was a weird one. It was a high stakes match, with the winner being billed as Jeffries next opponent. Hart set a pace and pressured Johnson, along with hitting him with good body shots, and Johnson went into his shell for pretty much the entire second half of the fight. Johnson's own corner urged him to be more active. Fighters have their reasons in the ring for opting out of the action.

    Jeffries said he'd face Hart if the public wanted it. The pubic felt Hart vs. Jeffries was another mis-match, which sucks because there is no film on Hart, and limited film on Jeffries, that one would have been filmed. You could say this match worked out well for Johnson later on, because if there was Hart vs Jeffries, there would likely be no Hart vs Burns for the lineal title and Burns was the man to give Johnson his title shot.
     
  3. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You won't go very far wrong with any of Adam Pollack's biographies.

    He is as good at getting at the primary information as anybody!

    If you want to hear it from Corbett's own tongue, then read his book "The Roar of the Crowd."
     
    Seamus likes this.
  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You misunderstand the comparison.

    I am not saying that McCoy was as good as Holyfield.

    I am saying that Lewis had a bigger weight advantage over Holyfieild, than Corbett had over McCoy.

    The weight difference doesn't tell the whole story!
     
  5. RealDeal

    RealDeal Active Member Full Member

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    Ok, thanks. I actually just downloaded Scientific Boxing by James J Corbett because it was free online. But I’ll check out Pollack’s biography on him too.
     
  6. Seamus

    Seamus Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Not that I entirely disagree with much of the above but you really are flourishing in a McVey Free Zone.
     
  7. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    Not really, I think chins can improve as one grows into one's full strength.
    Johnson was never a young champion he was 30 when he won the title, and you have to expect he could have won it a lot earlier had he been given the opportunity. Sparring matches don't convince me Smith would have stood much of a chance with Johnson and his moment in the sun ended abruptly when Langford took him out in a round and Carpentier beat him.Smith beat a still improving Willard and many thought Jess entitled to the verdict,a Moran who had no scalps of any note at that stage of his career,and a lethargic Langford who emphatically put the record straight in the rematch after which Smith was washed up
    .No promoter attempted to make a match between Johnson and Smith as far as I know.
    Johnson turned up for the O Brien No Dec bout hog fat according to reports,knowing O Brien did not possess a big punch and that no decision would be rendered so his crown was never in danger, Johnson cynically took the opportunity to come in out of shape.
    Jim Jeffries, commenting on the affair said O Brien could make anyone look average for 6 rounds,the next days newspapers stated there was no demand for a decision fight between the two .

    Several books go into detail about the shenanigans around proposed matches for Johnson ,with Jeannette and Langford ,and we know promoters tried to make these fights with both sides agreeing to fight.
    Johnson reneged on a signed contract to fight Langford in the UK hardly an honourable move,but one he justified by saying that it was basically for chump change and that he was broke when he agreed to it , now as champion he wanted the same purse for a defence that Burns had obtained defending against him.
    I've no doubt Johnson much preferred to fight the easy touches known as White Hopes and he was very well paid to defend against them .The money and the fact that he did not have to exert himself either to much in training or in the actual fight were added inducements.
    Once he was champion Johnson knew he would have to be in top shape to take on Langford or Jeannette , something he rarely was once he gained the crown,and the offers to fight either were certainly no better than those to knock over the likes of Kaufman,Ferguson, and Flynn.Is he to be blamed for pandering to White prejudice and taking the easy money?
    I've left out McVey because I don't think he ever really pushed for a title match with Jack,understandable if we consider the bad beating Johnson handed out in their last fight.
    I have been told that you have a hatred of Johnson,if this is true perhaps it may have colored your opinion of him and the circumstances surrounding his reign?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    Hello Mcvey,

    I'm a busy man today, but a quick reply if I may.

    What makes you so sure Smith would not do well vs. Johnson, he had him down and out as a novice? SUrely he hit hard enough to do the job, that was proven, and I disagree at age 23 your chin is in its prime, but nice try trying to mitigate the quick loss to Choynski.

    Moreover, Smith was a hot prospect by 1912 with wins over Moran, Williard, Flynn, and Ross. Recognize those names? Johnson gave them title shots. You could argue Smith did better than Johnson did vs. the same opponents and be correct. In addition, Smith has a win over Sam Langford in 1913! While the decision can be debated, its clear Gunboat Smith was the best " White Hope ", and one who put Johnson down for the count, exhibition match or not, he should have been given a title shot. Instead, Johnson picked people Smith defeated.

    Excuses aside, Johnson had a suspect year in 1909, his prime and didn't prove his worth as a champion vs. anyone in their prime with ability in Langford, Smith, Jeannette, or Mcvey.

    Heck, his match with Jim Battling Johnson was a dubious draw. This match shows Johnson could fight anyone in the world is if USA match could not be made.

    Johnson was about 205 pounds for O'Brien, about the same weight for Ketchel. How is that " hog fat " A better interpretation is O'Brien's quick jab and footwork created problems for Johnson. News reads show us that. O'Brien was stark contrast to the shorter anchored types Johnson fought that did not have good skills.

    In summary of Johnson's title defenses, the best two he fought were O'Brien and Williard. He is 0-1-1 here. Johnson was down and in some trouble vs a middleweight in Ketchel, drew to person with a Journeyman like record in Jim Battling Johnson ( No re-match was offered ), and avoided the best talents in Langford, Jeanette, Smith, and Mcvey, spite the fact that promoters offered a lot of money to meet some of them. I do agree with you; he wanted softer touches. Was he the best in the world from 1909-1914? We don't know, matches vs. the better talents would have shown us this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  9. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    We can actually talk about Jim Jeffries or Jack Johnson without it turning into a full on brawl!
     
  10. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. Full Member

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    We sure can, after all Mcvey is no longer posting...at least as Mcvey. Some threads like Tua vs. are just part of the culture here. Please no Tua vs. Johnson threads, that one could get ugly :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  11. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    You are starting to annoy me, I'm not McVey,and.I'm not responsible for posts before I joined .Get a grip ,or do not respond to my posts.
     
  12. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    I'm saying Holyfield at 217lbs was a real heavyweight and McCoy who often came in at163/165lbs or lower was not.
    McCoy 157lbs v Ruhlin180lbs
    McCoy 163 lbs v Choynski 165lbs
    McCoy 158lb v Choynski 169lbs
    McCoy158lbs v Sharkey 172lbs
    McCoy 163lbs v Maher 172lbs
    McCoy 159lbs v McCormick 175lbs
    McCoy 173lbs v Root 168lbs

    Ruhlin is the only heavyweight on that list.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  13. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    I see nothing on Smith's record to suggest he beats Johnson knocking him down in sparring does not qualify him for a title shot,imo.
    I'm not mitigating Johnson being ko'd by Choynski, where in my post do you see that? Langford would have been a real threat to Johnson's reign because he had the power to ko anyone,the problem for Sam was his conditioning was not consistent he often entered the ring overweight and just went through the motions ,rather like Johnson in that respect.He would be a real danger to Johnson but prime for prime I am persuaded that he gets outpointed by him .
    Jeannette was a poor man's version of Johnson who was his superior in every way except in stamina.
    Willard and Moran were nobodies in1912.
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    Smith floored Moran at the bell ending the second round. The crowd was so disgusted with this bout that half walked out after the 15th round.
    Hardly championship material?

    Willard had 17fights when he fought Smith ,Smith 53.

    I cant see how you can get a form line on Johnson's draw with Battling Jim. Johnson broke his arm in that fight surely that must be factored in when assessing his performance?
    It was a poor fight, due to the Champion's injury and the inability of the challenger to take advantage of a 35 years old champion who had not fought for nearly 2 years,no one wanted to see it again.
    We don't know what Johnson weighed for O Brien, some papers made a guess at 225/230lbs and he was reported to be blowing like a Walrus after the first round!
    O Brien was said to be in absolute top shape.Over any championship distance O Brien would not make a show with Johnson, he ran around the ring for 6 rds and a frustrated Johnson manhandled him and threw him to the floor twice.
    O Brien was comprehensively mastered by Tommy Burns whom Johnson toyed with,again nobody wanted to see O Brien v Johnson in a decision fight.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti The Ad Wolgast of Googling Stuff Full Member

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    The official weights were often a bit dubious, boxrec comments on McCoy looking heavier than claimed. You'd really need to look at the reports for each.

    I'd say the weight difference between McCoy and Holyfield only matters if we were comparing them H2H. It might not be a great win for a modern sized heavyweight, but Corbett's a good bit smaller than that, and it's a good wim for a fighter his size.
     
  15. Rainer

    Rainer Active Member Full Member

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    My sole point is McCoy was not a genuine heavyweight.
     


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