Cotto vs Pacquiao in a P4P sense + other matchups

Sandmanl337 · Jun 15, 2008

Janjalani said:

Pac-Cotto is a pure fantasy and will never ever happen. I think roach ain't stupid enough to challenge Cotto or Floyd(if he was still active).Though I find it crazy that Roach wants Hoya for Pac.It's just plain suicide.

I give Pacquiao the limit of fighting Hatton at 140,since he can fight weighting at 145lbs.Though at 140lbs category,fighters there goes into fight night at 150lbs.Its like a lion against a buffalo.Whoever can hurt more just wins.We can't predict it anyway.Still I give Hatton the edge against Pacquiao.

Overall of course Pacquiao wins on resume, but skills are in Cotto no doubt.

P4P terms, Pacquiao just gets my nod in a slight.
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Great view and I agree with you for the most part, except for giving the edge to Hatton over Pac..

If Pac could retain his speed and power at any weight, then I give the edge to Pac.. Pac would lose some speed though, but he could retain or gain power.. He'd still be fast though with possibly more pop.. This is kinda' complicated so I'll probably leave it at that.. Kinda' hard to figure out seeing as how Cotto is also a boxer while Pac is a fighter... I could be talking out my ass as well though..

Lance_Uppercut · Jun 15, 2008

Hate to rain on the parade, but just about all those matchups are not only physically impossible to make but in termks of a H2H matchup, they don't make sense either. Having two fighters so different in weight and trying to have them meet somewhere would change that fighter greatly.

Marc · Jun 15, 2008

In a p4p h2h I would favor Pac over Cotto, basing on what happened in Cotto vs Judah. Zab's quickness + southpaw stance caused Cotto major headaches. The only problem for Zab was he couldn't keep it together. Pac would.

Lance_Uppercut · Jun 15, 2008

Marc said:

In a p4p h2h I would favor Pac over Cotto, basing on what happened in Cotto vs Judah. Zab's quickness + southpaw stance caused Cotto major headaches. The only problem for Zab was he couldn't keep it together. Pac would.
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Pac weighing in at 147 wouldn't resemble the Pac who you see fighting today. And the other way, Cotto would not be the same fighter he is if HE was 130-135 pounds.

This H2H stuff is way to highly flawed to take serious.

Hatesrats · Jun 15, 2008

Haye-Cotto
Haye-Mosley
Haye-JMM
Haye-Rafa Marquez
Dawson-Pac
Dawson-Juan Diaz
Dawson-Guzman
Dawson-Vazquez
Calzaghe-Cotto
Calzaghe-Mijares
Calzaghe-Guzman
Hopkins-Campbell
Hopkins-Pac
Kessler-Cotto
Kessler-Pac
Kessler-Mijares
Kessler-Guzman
Cotto-Mijares
Cotto-Guzman
Cotto-Rafa Marquez
Mosley-Rafa Marquez
Guzman-Mijares
Pavlik-Montiel
Hopkins-Juan Diaz

huki · Jun 15, 2008

Lance_Uppercut said:

Hate to rain on the parade, but just about all those matchups are not only physically impossible to make but in termks of a H2H matchup, they don't make sense either. Having two fighters so different in weight and trying to have them meet somewhere would change that fighter greatly.
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Why are people having such a hard time understanding this thread? Of course these matchups are physically impossible. We're talking about fighters who could transform to any weight and have the same relative abilities/skills/size at their new weight classes.

So lets say Haye transforms into a 122 pounder because he's matched up against Rafa Marquez. He would have similar power to Ponce De Leon, and similar speed to Juanma Lopez. And since Haye is a big CW, his size would be similar to a young Guzman when he was at 122 years ago, very large for that weight. So you would analyze the matchup like that 122 pound Haye was fighting the Marquez we know.

huki · Jun 15, 2008

Here are my picks for the matchups BTW, some of them don't have too much analysis behind them and are instinct picks after a minute or two of thought, but I could justify all of them:

Haye-Cotto
Haye-Mosley
Haye-JMM
Haye-Rafa Marquez
Dawson-Pac
Dawson-Juan Diaz
Dawson-Guzman
Dawson-Vazquez
Calzaghe-Cotto
Calzaghe-Mijares
Calzaghe-Guzman
Hopkins-Campbell
Hopkins-Pac (but only if the ref allowed Hopkins to fight his dirty fight.. this is the only elite fighter I would favor Hopklns over slightly because of a huge style advantage)
Kessler-Cotto
Kessler-Pac
Kessler-Mijares
Kessler-Guzman
Cotto-Mijares
Cotto-Guzman
Cotto-Rafa Marquez
Mosley-Rafa Marquez
Guzman-Mijares (I think this is the battle for #1, very difficult to analyze.. I picked Guzman because I think he would force Mijares to fight his fight more than vice versa)

Pavlik-Montiel
Hopkins-Juan Diaz

huki · Jun 15, 2008

So my top 10 P4P H2H list would look something like this:

1. Guzman
2. Mijares
3. Calzaghe
4. Kessler
5. Cotto
6. Dawson
7. JMM
8. Juan Diaz (B+ fighter probably, but he has a good style advantage over a lot of the P4P top 15)
9. Pac (Pac fans would call this hating, but I'm not being biased the least bit by putting him here, I have analysis to back all of this up if you want to debate)
10. Rafa Marquez (beats Diaz IMO, but loses to everyone else in the top 10 and some fighters in the top 25 too.. maybe he shouldn't even be here, especially because he's fading. I would put Mosley here, but I think Rafa beats him and deserves this place more.)

Lance_Uppercut · Jun 15, 2008

huki said:

Why are people having such a hard time understanding this thread? Of course these matchups are physically impossible. We're talking about fighters who could transform to any weight and have the same relative abilities/skills/size at their new weight classes.

So lets say Haye transforms into a 122 pounder because he's matched up against Rafa Marquez. He would have similar power to Ponce De Leon, and similar speed to Juanma Lopez. And since Haye is a big CW, his size would be similar to a young Guzman when he was at 122 years ago, very large for that weight. So you would analyze the matchup like that 122 pound Haye was fighting the Marquez we know.
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That wouldn't be Haye no matter how you put it. that's why the whole H2H P4P thing you and Amsterdam buy into is so terribly flawed. It's based on opinion and only backed by opinion.

Marc · Jun 15, 2008

How about Mayweather-Guzman...

JMP · Jun 15, 2008

im not an expert, but here are my choices

Haye-Cotto
Haye-Mosley
Haye-JMM
Haye-Rafa Marquez
Dawson-Pac
Dawson-Juan Diaz
Dawson-Guzman
Dawson-Vazquez
Calzaghe-Cotto
Calzaghe-Mijares
Calzaghe-Guzman
Hopkins-Campbell
Hopkins-Pac
Kessler-Cotto
Kessler-Pac
Kessler-Mijares
Kessler-Guzman
Cotto-Mijares
Cotto-Guzman
Cotto-Rafa Marquez
Mosley-Rafa Marquez
Guzman-Mijares
Pavlik-Montiel
Hopkins-Juan Diaz

huki · Jun 15, 2008

Lance_Uppercut said:

That wouldn't be Haye no matter how you put it. that's why the whole H2H P4P thing you and Amsterdam buy into is so terribly flawed. It's based on opinion and only backed by opinion.
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It's based on analysis/logic and backed up by analysis. If you don't understand the concept of it or don't care about it, then simply leave this thread.

Marc said:

How about Mayweather-Guzman...
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Didn't think about this before.. I think I would actually favor Mayweather to win a close UD over a 130 pound Guzman. However, I would pick Cotto, Calzaghe, Mijares, Dawson, and Kessler over Floyd. Less drained Guzman with improved stamina beats Floyd too.

BTW, I also believe Guzman will step his game up another level when he gets a big fight, so take that into consideration when looking at some of my picks involving him. I also think that at 135 he will have better stamina. If he doesn't, I would pick fighters like Cotto, Mijares, and Calzaghe over him, maybe Dawson and Kessler too.

JMP · Jun 15, 2008

can you explain your thinking behind a lhw calzaghe vs a ww cotto?

JMP · Jun 15, 2008

and dawson-pac

Lance_Uppercut · Jun 15, 2008

huki said:

It's based on analysis/logic and backed up by analysis. If you don't understand the concept of it or don't care about it, then simply leave this thread.

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No, its backed by putting the analysis of one fighter in one weight and giving it to another. That's what you did with Haye isn't it? Giving him De leon's power or Juan Manual Lopez's speed? Those are their attributes @ 122 not Haye's. You can pretend Haye @ 122 can still look like Haye @ 200, but like I said. It's opinion backed by opinion. Hey, if you want to have fun with this, that's fine. Nothing wrong with it. But it's purely fantasy and in no way does it reflect reality, which I noticed all too often enters the discussion in reality as if its fact.

Don't take this personal Huki. The H2H P4P is just something that no one can ever back with fact and is too open to opinion or "who you like better", which it ultimately is.

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