Could anyone out slug young Foreman?

The thing is none of it is above a hard spar or a gym war… ranked partners, glove / head gear scenarios and stoppages a combination of all of those sounds like a pretty typical championship camp… Mike Tyson did nearly exactly the above all the time, he sparred ranked guys, stopped people (a lot) and refused to wear head gear till he got a bad cut… Besides that there is 0 evidence besides one guy? None of the fighters ever came forward ever? Leonard has never talked about it ? Leonard was doing a lot of hard rounds (he didn’t call it a fight or even a 10 rounder? ) to get used to being hit hard again (at least that’s what he said) like endless guys before him, I assume he did it to see what he had left for Hagler he was sparring hard to clear the rust and determine where he stood after a long lay off lol also in what way Mr Mike Trainer is guys wearing head gear a simulated fight?

 

I know this is one of your angsty triggering topics but you can take a deep breath and relax. No-one is claiming Ray cheated, or had unfair advantages etc etc etc. No one gives a **** about Leonard - Hagler right now. If you take another look you might even see that. There's any amount of quotes and statements on all this. Some vary a little because that's what happens over time. At any rate there was some stuff that went over and above your regular sparring because they felt they needed something extra to help with the lack of activity.

 

Well it sounds like you have it all worked out bud lol

 

Super serious secret fight… head gear? lol if it happens in the gym and there are no stakes but the obvious pain of hard sparring it’s ya know sparring.

 

Who mentioned cheating?

I think you’ve walked into the wrong argument room - Hagler vs Leonard is two doors down and to the left.

Correct, the incident against Taylor was sparring - I read back and see that I inadvertently referenced that incident alongside the reference to the full blown fights.

That incident in itself was kept hush as at the time - and later, false rumours had Leonard literally being knocked out by Taylor, flat on the canvas.

I’ve read multiple references to these secret bouts previously - the Wiki link corroborated what I had heard/read previously.

Taylor a 3-0 MW as at the time went on to compile a very respectable record going forward, picking up the WBC MW belt along the way.

He ran with that 3-0 thereafter, logging an unbeaten streak before dropping a not so wide UD to Terry Norris. And of course, he did manage to have Leonard out on his feet - something Hagler didn’t come close to doing.

So….what’s your position on the question of ring rust?

Do you think it can be completely averted via gym work and do you think that Ali and Foreman did the necessary gym work to avert same going into the first Frazier and Lyle fights respectively?

 

“The full blown fights” sorry Puggie you mean the “hard sparring” that Leonard did to knock the rust off, don’t try and sneak that in there or you’ll reopen the can.

 

I’m not wound up at all - but true to your usual high strung form, you are. You needs to stop projecting so much.

Your new self affirming mantras are that you’ve wound someone up and that they’re running away - while your own writing clearly indicates how antsy your are and how many holes in argument that you have ignored and left behind you.

Your “IN” tray is over flowing. Your KPIs are completely unsatisfactory.

Where is the hard sparring that both Ali and Foreman did to stave off ring rust?

They’re very simple questions to answer, as posed previously - but yet, you’ve provided zip, nada….nothing.

Ali got in the ring in ‘69-‘70 to spar some rounds and that’s all she wrote? All the rust just dropped off, simple as that.

Why did the come backing Ali look and self admittedly feel gassed after just 3 rounds vs Quarry?

With ALL that hard sparring during his hiatus, he should’ve had the same boundless energy, timing, speed and precision as he did in last pre exile fight vs Folley, right? A seamless transition into his comeback.

We’re not on those topics anymore? The topics your arguments fell apart on upon valid refutations? Therein lies the true diversions and avoidance of relevant facts - you’re reading like a cat on a hot tin roof, chronically jumping off point.

And damn, can spell Paychek correctly already?

 

@Pugguy I’ll leave this here when you’re ready, you won’t be but that’s okay (go ahead divert all you want) this will wait here for ya.

“What makes something a “secret fight” and not a hard spar Pug? What is so different to it and the kind of hard sparring modern pros / guys knocking the rust off do instead of fighting Johnny Paycheck? You don’t think guys foul in the gym? You don’t think when you’re sparring intensely it isn’t trying to “win” the round? You don’t think there is a “ref” around to control the action? Break it down and try to be sort of specific to Leonard not your “interpretation” what did he do different?”

 

You really are a lost ball in the high grass.

Perhaps you should shoot up some more distress flares for someone (anyone? ) to help you out.

 

Excellent provision of further details. And agreed, it really is that simple.

Further, why would I push further into supplying more details to a poster who has bypassed all requests for provision of evidence in kind?

It’s just the same ol’ tired boring and baseless agenda he has carried from one thread to another re Ali and Foreman. Quite a high strung fellow too. Reads like something is about to snap.

 

I’m not the one who dragged Leonard’s preparation for Hagler into a Foreman thread: that would be you.

I think both Ali and Foreman were prepared physically for the fights referenced. I’m not sure Foreman was mentally prepared, but it serves as an attestation to his willpower and willingness to wade through the whirlwind to win it, so he obviously wasn’t a complete mental wreck after Ali as some have claimed.

Ring rust is not quantifiable to the point that you can run a test and say a fighter has gone from 100% rusty to 50%. I think the gym does most of the work shaking it off if one trains properly, but a live fight (not hard sparring sessions against guys with headgears) — especially getting more and more rounds in rather than a quick KO — is the true WD40 of those rusty hinges.

And there’s this: When one lays off a long time, he may reclaim what he had to a degree and if he indeed elite he can compensate in other ways and rely on guile and other tools that have not diminished, it’s almost a certainty that the fighter will lose something. And that something can in many cases never be reclaimed — no amount of sparring or fights was going to make FotC Ali be the same guy floating like a butterfly and ripping combos with blinding speed while gliding around the ring that he was before that layoff.

 

Yup because that same genius gameplan paid dividends for Chuvalo who was more powerful and obviously much more durable than Holmes

Yes because how could Foreman replicate what Renaldo ****ing Snipes nearly accomplished?

I will again refer you to the Chuvalo bout. Chuvalo may well have had more stamina than Holmes, and he damn sure had a better chin. Boxing is not that simple, and to be honest I'm quite frankly embarrassed at having to explain this to you.

You don't win a slugfest, by letting an ATG puncher beat the **** out of you and wait for him to tire out. To be honest, seeing the number of times I've seen him hurt in his prime even by lesser opposition, I highly doubt he's even around later in the fight when Foreman's gas tank will start to deplete. But let's say he is. You seem to think he'll be fresh as a daisy if Foreman tires out. No, he'll have been beaten to a bloody pulp, and will be exhausted himself. The amount of punishment he'd take would deplete both his gas tank, and durability. He'd also be depleted by trying to hold Foreman off of him. Let's face it, Holmes' power is average at best. He's going to need A LOT of output to try to keep Foreman off of him. If he thought keeping Norton off of him was exhausting, he's in for a treat. He's not gonna be able to take advantage of Foreman gassing if he's even around by that point in the fight.

Endurance yeah.

Chin? **** No.
On the one hand, I see Holmes being to eat a Frazier left hook like they were nothing. On the other hand, I somehow can envision Foreman managing to stay up against Snipes.

Again

I don't find the "analyses" merely dumb. It's quite frankly one of the dumbest takes, I've seen not only on this forum, but in my life. All due respect, in the unlikely event my herniated disc, decides to fix itself, allowing me to start boxing again, and you end up in the business as a trainer, please stay the **** away from me.

 

The obsessed have gotta obsess. Groundhog gotta groundhog.

 

Another irrelevant side argument (read: a carried over axe to grind) that you’re still running with?

“Ray sparred, Hagler lost. Boo hoo?” What even the hell is that?

Repeat, no one framed Ray’s prep as alleged cheating - you’re the only one who has introduced that contention. Like I said, you walked into the wrong argument room.

Given the reported conditions, they were very much real fights for Ray, with Leonard being further handicapped by the allowance of head gear and smaller gloves for his opponents. That’s a no brainer.