David Tua -vs- Jack Dempsey

Willard was 37 years old, 3 years inactive and horrible to begin with. Dempsey is greater, no doubt about that, but sometimes styles can neutralize that difference. Norton wasn't great but he beat Ali. Douglas wasn't great but he beat Tyson. Etc etc.

 

Dempsey was inactive for about 3 years ,but that didnt stop a poster citing his knockdown by Tunney as evidence of a weak chin.Dempsey was kod by Flynn when young in what may or may not have been a barney he returned the favour a year later ,no one else kod him ,Firpo was crude ,but no one would say he couldnt hit.Dempsey was several levels above Tua.AND HE HAD MUCH BIGGER NUTS!

 

Tua had a cooler sounding name though. David Tua. I always liked that name. Impossible to pronounce or remember his real name.

 

Tuaman is the coolest nickname in boxing history. Outside of The Ghetto Wizard, that is.

 

Harry Wills would disagree with you.

 

I think it's rather interesting how some people claim that Tua was too big and powerful for Dempsey yet in other threads some of these same people claim that Marciano, who was smaller than Dempsey would have beaten the likes of Lewis, Foreman, Ali and Frazier and yes Tua. If Tua blasts out Dempsey in 1 or 2 rounds then I shudder to think what he would do to the smaller and slower Marciano. Seems to be a bit of a double standard here. Truth be told, I think a prime Dempsey would be alot of trouble for Tua. Jack of the Firpo fight would make Tua fight at a pace that he is generally not used to fighting which could wear him out quicker than a slower paced battle against todays behemoths. Of course Tua could also end things early due to his size and power. The outcome isn't as cut and dry as some of us believe. I lean a bit toward Tua in this matchup but ti could easily go the other way.

 

Here's my take...Tua loses.

It's natural to assume that the bigger, stronger and possibly heavier puncher will win, I can't fault that logic. What doesn't sit well with me in Tua's case, is that I've always suspected he's not a natural fighter. He just didn't have "it."

He warred with Ike, but how many other times did he do that in his career? If there is a failing in our collective thinking, it's that since a fighter did something once, he always did it or always could do it.
For the better part of his career, Tua came in too heavy and was slow and sloppy as a result. He just didn't come in with the mindset to go 10, 12 fast rounds. Even the flat-footed Rahman, no defensive genius or genius at anything, easily evaded Tua's ponderous swings for the vast majority of their two fights. So did Maskaev and Byrd, who is very overrated defensively. Fair enough, they may fight differently to the marauding Dempsey, but they still managed to evade most of Tua's bombs. Really, none of these guys are anything wonderful. Even the strictly mediocre Fres Oquendo stretched him. Rahman and Maskaev fell eventually, but Tua always seemed to be playing catch-up on points, before a last desperate rally. Besides, Rahman was unlucky to get only a draw in the 2nd fight.
Against world class opposition that would be one thing, but are those fighters really world class? Not to me, no.

So we have Tua who is big and strong, but battles against decent opposition. If he didn't catch you early, you could stretch him quite easily.

Then, we have the fight against Lewis. Admittedly, a totally different fighter to Dempsey, but one point needs to be mentioned. Tua was pretty aggressive for the first three rounds, and then his performance dropped off completely. Maybe he felt Lewis' power or maybe it was something else, but for whatever reson, he was a tame kitten for the rest of the fight. Since it was for the title, his performance was noticeably timid. In the biggest night of his life, I find that unacceptable.

Dempsey may be the smaller fighter, but he was a fighter. And that is why I pick him. He will snarl and get on with it, but will Tua?

 

Tua was involved in two fights with the highest number of punches thrown how can anyone say Dempsey would outlast him, pick Dempsey to win but don't question a young Tua's stamina as it was great.

 

I know of one, the Ike fight. Which was the other?

 

Dempsey signed to fight Wills in Sept 1924 ,it wasnt his fault the fight wasnt made.Did you ever see Dempsey go into his shell and fight just to survive ,the way Tua did against Lewis ? Even when Tunney was jabbing him at will in their last fight ,with his legs gone and his eyes closed Dempsey walked into the guns trying for a KO. Tua swallowed it.

 

I don't think Dempsey was racist, or afraid of Wills, there are a great many reasons Wills never got his title shot, it was all just one big ****ed up mess. One of the main reasons was that Tex Rickard was dead-set against a black man fighting for the heavyweight title, and he would not promote the fight, he was THE promoter of the time, and the only time Dempsey didn't work with him during his title reign turned out to be a disaster. So, I agree with you. I also agree with those that are saying Dempsey was a more natural fighter than Tua, in my opinion Dempsey was one of the most natural "fighters" to ever lace up the gloves.

 

Ironicaly that is something that Harry Wills would not disagree with.

While he resented the fact that he never got to fight for the title and was scathing about most parties involved, he always respected the fact that Dempsey tried to make the fight.

 

Would you happen to have any details on this? Do you know how hard Dempsey persued the fight? What measures did he take to try to get the fight made? Was he just willing, but went along with it because of the politics of the time or did he really try to push for it? Do you have any quotes from Wills on Dempsey and his feelings on not getting a shot at the title? Just curious.

 

You could make a case going by resumes and dominance of era Harry Wills should be rated above jack dempsey. Its only film that holds wills ranking back. I hope people get to see that harry wills vs bartley madden film in 1924 to judge wills style and tools. I have a feeling he is a lot better than many here think, and coincidently some dempsey fans think. Dempsey has film going for him, wills does not. its unfair but a realization.

 

Jack Dempsey signed contracts to fight Harry Wills twice.

The first time the state athletic comision refused to sanction the bout for fear that it would cause race riots.

The second time the promotor was not on the level and Dempseys cheque bounced.

Of course the fight didnt happen one way or another and it would have been Dempseys biggest legacy fight but it should be noted that Dempsey tried to make the fight where previous champions and some subsequent ones said "no and never" to meeting black challengers.