Dempsey, Liston, Holyfield, Frazier.

No they don't, but it's nice to pretend.

 

Exactly.

Ali showed the same open-ness to the left hook, and bad habit of moving straight back that nearly cost him against both Jones and Cooper. Liston was just too ponderous and limited a fighter to take advantage of those obvious flaws. Ali didn't begin fixing those flaws until the Cooper rematch several fights later, and he didn't reach the height of his form until the Williams and Terrell fights a year or so after that.

The nonsense about Ali magically transforming into "the greatest fighter ever" overnight is just a revisionist spin job used to try to downplay the disgracefulness of Liston's quit job(s).

 

Liston of 59-62 was a great h2h fighter no question. I just think his reputation after that point depleted the chances of him competing with that many mentally prepared fighters. without ali there was always machen and jones who would have at least given him competitive rounds but if he avoided them sonny would have went soft like he did and maybe been upset by game fighters like bonavena and chuvalo as well as frazier. Liston could never have been as good as his great 1959-60 prime any later than 64' because he just wasn’t getting any competition after 1960.

 

overall ranking :
Holyfield
Frazier
Liston
Dempsey
resume : same ranking as overall.
dominance : Holyfield , Liston and Dempsey about equal , Frazier somewhat behind.
That said , Liston's and Dempsey's eras were much weaker and Dempsey was a ***** avoiding the black threats , cheating vs Sharkey with a low blow , hook combo and who knows what more , so dominance goes to Holyfield as well.
legacy : does it matter more than preference in BBCs ?
h2h : Holyfield > Liston ~ Frazier > Dempsey
p4p : Holyfield >~ Frazier >~ Liston >~ Dempsey

 

Ali on the night against Liston.

Fighters should definitely be criticized for how they lose. Liston's quit job, by sitting on his stool and relinquishing the HW title hadn't been by a champion since Williard-Dempsey (Pretty damn good reason to stop fighting there). Liston's quit job gets totally overlooked because he's some supposed H2H monster. An H2H monster who supposedly beats durable, tough, hard-punching Heavyweights like Foreman, Tyson, and Frazier, but quits against light-hitters like Ali. Oh, but he was a 40 year old alcoholic by that time.

 

Yep, dominant fighters tend to be. That's why extreme views persist on such subjects, although a ranking of Tyson tends to be much more level-headed than in previous years. The cliche' view is a "Fighter's greatness is determined to how he deals with adversity or a test." If your test is some disgraceful or bad loss your dominance will be seen in a totally new lens (Was it the opposition? Did "Dominant fighter slip" etc).

 

Dempsey
Frazier
Holyfield
Liston

I'm still one to believe what the old timers say of Dempsey. I wasn't around then, so how can I disagree. He looks good on film too. A real giant killer.

 

For me a successful title reign is the main criteria for judging the all time greats. Frazier gets underrated but had a nice reign of dominance with 9(?) successful defenses. Holyfield never had that dominant reign and I see him struggling with other greats head to head. Liston is a top 5 favorite of mine and he did clear out the division, but those losses to Ali are damaging.

Who knows, I may change my opinion sometime in the future. As for now:

#3 - Dempsey
#10 - Frazier
#11 - Holyfield
#12 - Liston

 

Sangria,I have been saying this for quite awhile. Kudos for taking heed what a vast majority of boxing experts who saw the prime Dempsey fight,
[not a past peak slow Dempsey after a 3 year layoff, of the Tunney fights]
who was a sinewy killer in the ring. Sam Langford agreed, Hype Igoe, Damon Runyon,Ray Arcel,agreed with the pollsters who called Jack Dempsey of his prime,"the greatest heavyweight they had ever seen ".If it was good enough for them who saw him in the flesh,it's good enough for me,90 years later...Cheers...

 

Yes luf,Dempsey can't get in because he has been in the boxing pantheon for lo 55-60 years, since the GUYS who saw the prime destructive Jack VOTED him in. :hi: