Dempsey vs James Toney

janitor · Oct 6, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

If you think the nascent eras of the sport and the division are equal to later eras. I don't suscribe to this idea of eqequivalency. ... nor do many others I suspect. And we are talking head to head here, not legacy.
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How would you go about testing the respective merits of two separate eras?

The more assumptions you build into your model, the more there is to go wrong with it.
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Foxy 01 · Oct 6, 2014

Anyone who seriously thinks Jess Willard is worthy of exhaltation is a sandwich short of a picnic.

Ted Spoon · Oct 6, 2014

Toney's lateral movement and sneaky counters would trouble Dempsey.

They wouldn't be the foil of him.

Dempsey showed against Gibbons, who also happens to be the best comparison for this fantasy match, that he can be patient and shorten his leather.

For every pop Tony landed he would be forced into an unproductive shell. And every time he felt the urge to follow up his high boxing IQ would be all too aware of the risk.

Toney may have even given a prime Holyfield more trouble than Dempsey - Jack routinely sparred with middleweights and was better equipped to 'pin them down' than most heavyweight greats.

janitor · Oct 6, 2014

Foxy 01 said: ↑

Anyone who seriously thinks Jess Willard is worthy of exhaltation is a sandwich short of a picnic.
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I happen to think that being the undisputed heavyweight champion is quite a significant accomplishment.

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I am sorry if you dont see it this way.

closedguard · Oct 6, 2014

Ted Spoon said: ↑

Toney's lateral movement and sneaky counters would trouble Dempsey.

They wouldn't be the foil of him.

Dempsey showed against Gibbons, who also happens to be the best comparison for this fantasy match, that he can be patient and shorten his leather.

For every pop Tony landed he would be forced into an unproductive shell. And every time he felt the urge to follow up his high boxing IQ would be all too aware of the risk.

Toney may have even given a prime Holyfield more trouble than Dempsey - Jack routinely sparred with middleweights and was better equkipped to 'pin them down' than most heavyweight greats.
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Again toneys weakness was poor defence below the head.

Seamus · Oct 6, 2014

janitor said: ↑

Seamus said: ↑

How would you go about testing the respective merits of two separate eras?

The more assumptions you build into your model, the more there is to go wrong with it.
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I am relying on my judgement from watching the sport for 30 years. I see a vast difference in the depth and quality of athletes participating in the heavyweight division from the early part of the 20th century to the latter. If you do not see this, either in whole or in part, I respect your observation but do not agree with it. It would run contrary to every other sporting activity on earth, but so be it.
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janitor · Oct 7, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

I am relying on my judgement from watching the sport for 30 years. I see a vast difference in the depth and quality of athletes participating in the heavyweight division from the early part of the 20th century to the latter. If you do not see this, either in whole or in part, I respect your observation but do not agree with it. It would run contrary to every other sporting activity on earth, but so be it.
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OK here is my problem.

Establishing the superiority of one era over another is fraught with problems and assumptions. For example most people would agree that the top heavyweights of the early 70s were better than the best heavyweights of the mid 30s, but if you actually matched them it would only take one upset and your entire hypothesis would be on trial for its life.

If you cannot establish that the elite fighters of era A, would beat the elite fighters of era B, then saying that the second tier fighters of era A would beat the elite fighters of era B would be an extraordinary claim, that would require extraordinary evidence to back it up. In practice it would depend upon a number of assumptions, and if one of them collapsed, it would bring the entire house down with it.

By comparing fighters based on their accomplishments relative to their era, I am working with the only tangible piece of data that I have. Beyond that there is only a limited amount that I can do to constrain which group of fighters was better or worse.
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Seamus · Oct 7, 2014

janitor said: ↑

Seamus said: ↑

OK here is my problem.

Establishing the superiority of one era over another is fraught with problems and assumptions. For example most people would agree that the top heavyweights of the early 70s were better than the best heavyweights of the mid 30s, but if you actually matched them it would only take one upset and your entire hypothesis would be on trial for its life.

If you cannot establish that the elite fighters of era A, would beat the elite fighters of era B, then saying that the second tier fighters of era A would beat the elite fighters of era B would be an extraordinary claim, that would require extraordinary evidence to back it up. In practice it would depend upon a number of assumptions, and if one of them collapsed, it would bring the entire house down with it.

By comparing fighters based on their accomplishments relative to their era, I am working with the only tangible piece of data that I have. Beyond that there is only a limited amount that I can do to constrain which group of fighters was better or worse.
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I respond that establishing equivalency is much more fraught with problems and is logically far-fetched... especially in a sporting world where quantifiable endeavors have so drastically improved.

Also, a single win by a 1930's heavy versus a 1970's heavy doesn't topple anything. It in an aberration to a general trend.
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janitor · Oct 8, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

I respond that establishing equivalency is much more fraught with problems and is logically far-fetched... especially in a sporting world where quantifiable endeavors have so drastically improved.

Also, a single win by a 1930's heavy versus a 1970's heavy doesn't topple anything. It in an aberration to a general trend.
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I am not saying that there is equivalence between eras, I am sure there is not. What I am saying is that we dont know the direction of the differential, how great it is, or even what factors it principally turns on.

I consider comparisons based on career accomplishments to carry far more weight than head to head comparisons, because they are based on known data. You can make a case for Jimmy Braddock beating Muhammad Ali head to head, but if you try to argue that he has a better resume, you will simply not be able to justify it on the available data.

Now where era equivalence does come into play, is in that there is always a big gulf between the best fighters in the era, and people ranked outside the top ten, or very low in it. In every era this differential is for much the same reasons. You would need a very strong argument in my opinion, to argue for somebody outside the top ten in a strong era, beating the champion of a weak era.
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Seamus · Oct 8, 2014

janitor said: ↑

Seamus said: ↑

I am not saying that there is equivalence between eras, I am sure there is not. What I am saying is that we dont know the direction of the differential, how great it is, or even what factors it principally turns on.

I consider comparisons based on career accomplishments to carry far more weight than head to head comparisons, because they are based on known data. You can make a case for Jimmy Braddock beating Muhammad Ali head to head, but if you try to argue that he has a better resume, you will simply not be able to justify it on the available data.

Now where era equivalence does come into play, is in that there is always a big gulf between the best fighters in the era, and people ranked outside the top ten, or very low in it. In every era this differential is for much the same reasons. You would need a very strong argument in my opinion, to argue for somebody outside the top ten in a strong era, beating the champion of a weak era.
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Well put. I actually agree with most of what you say, also.

I will respond more when I have something better than this shitty cell to type on but thanks for being able to converse in an intelligent, thoughtful manner. Seems to be missing in these parts.
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mcvey · Oct 9, 2014

Seamus said: ↑

janitor said: ↑

Well put. I actually agree with most of what you say, also.

I will respond more when I have something better than this shitty cell to type on but thanks for being able to converse in an intelligent, thoughtful manner. Seems to be missing in these parts.
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Well you would agree with it, you typed it!
Am I missing something here?
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lufcrazy · Oct 9, 2014

I do think Jack wins but only on points.

closedguard · Oct 9, 2014

If you guys can find something new that didn't exist 20 yrs ago let us all know!

mr. magoo · Oct 9, 2014

I'd go with Dempsey, though James in his prime might be a tricky opponent.

lufcrazy · Oct 9, 2014

James in his prime was incredible. But very inconsistent.

How many performances did we really see him at his best? I mean his absolute best?

If Nunn, Johnson and Body Snatcher were his best performances then that says more about them than him. That leaves what, Barkley, Jirov , Ruiz and Holyfield?

That's my biggest issue with him his peak performances were that rare it makes them anomalous in his career.

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