Did Cus cheat Liston out of a higher all-time ranking?

Liston was overconfident facing Clay in 1964. He'd have been even more confident in 1962. But the 1962 Clay had the same attributes as '64 Clay. Old Archie Moore couldn't lay a glove on him. Sonny would've had his hands full with Clay even at that early date. He'd never had to fight at the pace Clay would have set and later did set.

 

My counter is that Lston would not have won the title at that point. He would have still been hungry with a massive chip on his shoulder. Perhaps i'm wrong, or not.

 

I need to get something off my chest. It bugs me how often I read that Machen ran 12 rounds from Liston and cared only to survive. I have watched that 1960 Seattle bout many times and I'm always impressed with the courageous fight Eddie put on against the best version of Liston with only his left hand. The guys I've seen running from Liston in the ring were Elmer Rush, Bill McMurray and one Cassius Clay.

It's true that Machen turned into a more defensive fighter after Ingo starched him. For a good look at Machen pre-Ingo, view his 1956 bout with Johnny Summerlin. In that one Eddie is almost a different guy -- aggressive and throwing a lot of punches with both hands. The revelation for me was how tough Summerlin was. I mean he was TOUGH. Took tremendous punishment from Machen and fought back with guts and skill. THIS TELLS ME HOW GOOD LISTON WAS ALREADY IN 1954, when he beat Summerlin twice in eight rounds. These were only Liston's fifth and sixth pro fights. Makes me wonder how he would have fared against the top contenders all the way back then -- Valdes, Cockell, Charles, Baker, Walls, Neuhaus, Layne, Jackson, Norkus, Slade. I bet he would have presented a formidable challenge for every one of them.

 

Eddie didn’t run from Liston but as the commentary said, he was ‘very careful’ — not looking to engage a lot and seemed to be fighting more to survive than to try to win. Maybe he thought if he played it safe he’d find an opening and be able to take Sonny out, or that Sonny would tire … good luck wiht that.

I don’t consider what Ali did to be running (apart from he round where he couldn’t see). Lateral movement and in-and-out fighting isn’t running scared. He was engaging and initiating offense far more than Machen did (and far more effectively).

 

How about Round One, Clay vs Liston? The world of boxing had never seen such fleet-footed movement from a heavyweight. Clay used the entire ring circling to his left to avoid Liston's lunges.

 

Yes, I think so. But Charles and Walcott contested 3 out of 4 title fights in a row against each other (and Walcott got his third shot at the title in the fight after he lost his second), and Zale and Graziano had three MW title fights against each other in a row. And this despite Zale defending his title by a KO in the first.

So there are comparable examples, if not identical.

 

Lateral movement and in-and-out fighting is a good description of Machen's tactics against Sonny. That and repeatedly stepping to the left and to the right whenever Liston tried to set himself. Standing in front of Liston was the biggest no-no in boxing. Everybody knew that.

 

To be fair there was four fights on Charles side in between the Walcott - Charles trilogy and as you say a title defense as well. There was actually six fights on Walcott's side. So that's ten fights between them between the trilogy while Patterson - Ingo had zero.

Zale had eight fights inside the Graziano trilogy. Graziano had three. While i can see where you are coming from there's sizeable differences.

 

Went back and looked to refresh my memory — yeah, for the first minute he’s flitting around and getting a gauge on Sonny’s speed (or lack thereof), reach and such. In the second minute he’s in and out a bit. In the third minute he’s standing and planing and firing combos and taking it to Sonny more than Sonny is to him. I wouldn’t call that round ‘running.’

 

That's an accurate description of Clay in the first round. But if that's not running, I don't know how Machen can be accused of running. He fought Liston with his whole body (except for the injured right hand). He fought inside at times and even rassled with Sonny. This was when Liston's opponents would freeze under his glare at the weigh-in or during the referee's instructions. So why does Eddie get accused of cowardice? I don't understand it.

 

I agreed with you earlier that he wasn’t running … I’m not sure I’ve ever seen him accused of such but I gather you have.

I do think he was cautious. He didn’t engage often. One could argue he didn’t try to win. He’s far from the only guy who was ever in with a superior opponent and played it safe, but I think Ali vs Liston took it to Sonny more and too more chances (when you step into Sonny throwing combos you can get clipped). In short, Ali fought to win much more than Machen did.

But I’m not really critical of Machen’s performance myself, more trying to explain what I think others who are see when they watch the fight.

 

I heard this before too.
On an unrelated note, there's a roundtable with Patterson, LaMotta, Graziano and Torres were Patterson speaks very candidly about his fear of humiliation and how he would leave arenas wearing a disguise after he lost. He is psychologically very interesting.

 

I'm inclined to add his challenge of Ingo in there and divide by 9. Sure, Ingo held the title for one fight but they were locked in for all three fights with nil in between. This would slide the time between title fights out to 269 days which is getting out there.

By my rough calculations Ali's reign in the 60's was for 1121 days with 9 defenses which gives him 125 days per defense. That's not miles off doubling Floyds efforts even via your initial stats on Floyd. Granted Ali was busy but i do think Floyd was a bit tardy.

 

The gap between London and Ingo 1 was not “over a year” but just over 7 weeks. May 1st - 26th June 59. The return fight clauses were written into the 3 fights with the Swede.
The gap year as champion, had, not unreasonably, Johansson basking in the glory, including a Hollywood movie with Ladd and Poitier. Just like Len Lewis did years later, instead of getting prepared for Rahman.
Also numerous other TV guest appearances in America where he was regarded as a novelty, being the first non - American champion since Carnera in the 30’s
Patterson can’t be blamed for the above. He was busy training.

 

Yes, they all had several non-title fights in the interim. But there were no other fights for the title throughout the Graziano-Zale trilogy and only one other between the last three of Charles-Walcott. So they tied up the title mord of less as effectively.

And actually with less reason. Graziano got the next title shot after losing his first to Zale (this after the title having been frozen for almost five years). And Walcott got his third without any fights between that and the second.

So Floyd-Ingo, with their rematch clauses, makes more sense to me, actually.