Did Dempsey double-cross Fulton?

Complete **** from the ****per.

You can find anything you want to find looking through nationwide newspaper articles. The uninformed chooses the minority opinion for no other purpose than to garner reactions. The true historian looks for the truth rather than the exceptions.

Your running toward the exceptions overwhelmingly reveals your sorry and twisted motivation.

 

No it's you offering ****. Cherry picked data that does not represent the whole of the data is a worst case scenario. You are purposefully trying to deceive.

 

I'm not sure where Seamus stands on this.
We've read Fulton's allegations. I know what I think.
Fulton's excuse for losing sounds a little pathetic. A very small chance it is true.
And even if it's true, he's complaining that the fight was legit.
Let's imagine it's true. The bell rang and Dempsey came right at him apparently not playing the agreed game. The fact that he hadn't prepared himself for such an eventuality makes him look worse than if he was just beaten 'fair and square', which he was.

Besides, I've read allegations in newspapers of 1920 that for the Dempsey-Miske bouts of 1918, Dempsey CARRIED Miske.
I doubt that too. But if I was to give credence to Fulton's story, I'd think the Miske allegations are very credible too. Perhaps that's how Fulton was fooled by the double cross, because he was aware that Dempsey had carried Billy Miske?

I doubt it all.

Likewise, there's extensive "evidence" that Dempsey's first bout with Tunney was fixed. Many people made the allegation, either directly or indirectly or privately. Specifically, that Arnold Rothstein and Abe Attell had some involvement in it. Dempsey himself blamed Tunney's relationship with Max Boo Boo Hoff, and alleged he was poisoned by a man supposedly acting as bodyguard. That all could have been a smokescreen or an excuse or just an excuse to hype a rematch.
Others, including Ring Lardner, thought Dempsey was in on the actual fix.
Considering that Dempsey was possibly a massive liar and unstrustworthy man of fraudulent character, according to many here, surely his LOSSES to Tunney (and others) need to be viewed with equal suspicion too.
But of course that does less to diminish his ability as a fighter, so perhaps Seamus is less interested in going down that road for that reason.

 

I mean Dempsey carried Carpentier on Rickard ' s request. I'm reading a book about the history of professional wrestling and he notes that for the first few decades of the 20th century both boxing and wrestling were rarely considered on the level. Look at how many fights from that time we think of as hinky- Gans vs McGovern, johnson vs Ketchel, siki vs carpientier. The base assumption for wrestling matches is that a match was fixed and it is our burden of proof to say it was real. Boxing is the other way around.

The long count fight is fascinating because it is rarely mentioned that the very next round Tunney drops Dempsey - and the referee jumps in for an immediate count.

 

It must be about time for the, breaking in girls in a brothel for white slavers story to re-surface isn't it.?

The idea of anyone expecting Dempsey to take it easy inside a ring is ludicrous.He beat the sh*t out of his sparring partners ,in a real fight he was murderous.
Mendoza =Johnson
Seamus = Dempsey

 

Anyway it's rather reminiscent of people accusing Liston of using liniment after the Ali fight. Fulton did not accuse Dempsey until much later. Certainly had the fight been pre arranged he would have said something right away.

 

His fight with Carl Morris was thought to be fixed in New Orleans as well. They spent more time in their write-ups talking about how bad of an actor Morris was rather than the actual fight. His fight in Memphis with Fred Saddy was an absolute fix. Kearns first tried to get Dempsey matched with a guy who had just been knocked out. When that idea was killed Kearns had Saddy (who had been Dempsey's sparring partner) brought in under an assumed name and had Dempsey knock him out fast. When Memphis people found out Saddy was associated with Dempsey and brought in specifically to pad his record they were in an uproar. If the Fulton fight was a fix it wouldn't be the last time Fulton agreed to lay down before the fight and it wouldn't be the first fight Dempsey was in that had a strong odor about it.

 

:hi:

 

I am guessing, not you

 

Many alts I know you probably read this so don't read it again, this is about Carl Morris written by Mike Casey, entitled Jack Dempsey: The Sudden Rush Of Greatness'.

This part deals with Carl Morris:

The Carl Morris thing

After blitzing Gunboat Smith in their second match at Buffalo, Jack Dempsey held court in his hotel to a small and select group of journalists. The heir apparent to the throne wanted to put the record straight on the one man who got under his skin more than any other: big Carl Morris from Kentucky. Try as he did, Dempsey could never warm to Morris. There was friction between the two men whenever they crossed paths, right from the days when Jack was Carl’s sparring partner.

Morris had a condescending manner about him and a caustic sense of humour to match. Every time he opened his mouth, Dempsey bridled. Now Jack had finally shut him up. Just two weeks before despatching Gunboat Smith, Dempsey had conceded 35lbs to crush Morris in one round at New Orleans. Finally, a ghost had been laid to rest.

Jack had already posted two wins over Carl, outpointing the giant at San Francisco and winning by disqualification in their second meeting in Buffalo. But neither result was good enough for the size-obsessed ‘experts’ of the age, who refused to believe that a David could whip a Goliath and then rubbished the evidence when it was presented.

Morris paid a visit to Dempsey’s dressing room before their second fight. It was a bad mistake. Tense and irritable, Jack roared, “Get outta here, you cheap *******, or I’ll flatten you right now!”

Dempsey didn’t get his chance that night. Morris, sensing a lost cause, got himself thrown out in the sixth round after winging one south of the border and re-arranging Jack’s wedding tackle. But Jack surely did flatten Carl in the final instalment of their ill-tempered trilogy.

Here is what Dempsey told those few reporters on the final day of 1918: “Going down to New Orleans, I had two days’ time to think things over. I boxed Morris in Buffalo and knew his style pretty well. But I realised he was tough. I made up my mind not to take unnecessary chances as the New Orleans fight was booked for 20 rounds. I figured it out that Morris would want to stick the limit and that he’d play a defensive game and make me carry the fight to him – that he would wrestle in the clinches and make me carry his weight and try to get me tired. It’s no cinch, you know, to lug a big guy like him around for six or eight rounds.

“Going down on the train, I doped it out this way: I’d let Morris set the pace, nailing him when he left openings but never going in and mixing with him. What I planned to do was outbox him and wait for a chance to sink the ship.

“When the referee calls us to the centre of the ring, Morris was so polite I became suspicious. It was Jack this and Jack that. He Jacked me to death. When we get our instructions from the referee and are going back to our corners for the first bell, Morris yells out so everybody could hear him, ‘Make this a clean fight, Jack, no rough stuff’.

“Out we come, Morris laughing and leading with his left. It fell short. I tapped him with a left on the nose. He keeps on laughing. He swings his right. I duck and he grabs me. Right off the reel he starts the rough stuff The moment he got hold of me, what does he do but rush me across the ring and slam me into the ropes, throwing all his weight on me and rubbing my back ten or fifteen feet along the top rope You know what that does, don’t you? Just burns your back, that’s all. And there’s the guy who says make it a clean fight.

“The referee was wise and cautioned Morris. Morris excused himself and we break. I hooked him with a left to the chin. He was hurt. He lost his noodle, I guess, for he rushes in and grabs me again, though I tried to pull away from him. He got a good hold, like Zbyszko (the wrestler) and slams me into one of the corners.

“He puts one of his ham-like hands against my forehead and deliberately tried to jam my head back over the ropes so my skull would hit the iron post. Trying to knock me out that way. Bum stuff.

“The referee rushes in, yelling at Morris to quit trying to foul. I yelled at the referee to let him go. ‘I’ll take care of him,’ says I as we break away. I lost all regard for Morris. I tore loose, driving a left to the pit of his stomach with every ounce of strength I had, and as he doubled up and begins to sink to the floor, I whipped my right to his chin and he went down like a log. Both his feet were up in the air. The referee counted ten and it was a long, generous count too.

“I don’t think I ever hit a man as hard as I belted Morris in the stomach. Say, that referee could have counted a hundred. Morris didn’t move. His seconds dragged him to his corner.

“I went over to shake his hand, willing to let bygones be bygones, but I got an awful shock. Morris was as white as milk and as limp as a rag. His lips were purple. On the square, I thought he was done for. I was never so frightened in my life. You know, I don’t want to hurt no man. I turned in and helped his seconds revive him. We worked over him for four minutes before he opened his eyes. I was a happy lad when he looks up and I see he’s all right.

“You see, I went in planning to box him six or eight rounds, but when he tried to burn my back on the ropes and knock my head against the iron post – well, no man is going to do that to me and get away with it. Morris made me knock him out in two minutes.”

Seven months after Morris, Dempsey would take his controlled fury to Toledo and brutally sever Jess Willard’s grip on the heavyweight championship.

 

And the fight was filmed. Dempsey due to his power, speed and aggressiveness matched up well vs. the bigger slower types. In Fulton's case, he had a weak chin.