Did the second Foreman REALLY have a better chin than the first Foreman?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by ikrasevic, Jul 9, 2024.



Did the second Foreman REALLY have a better chin than the first Foreman?

This poll will close on Jul 9, 2034 at 10:59 AM.
  1. YES

  2. NO

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  1. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Entirely circular logic.

    You are assuming that a mans chin was better in his 40s, than in his 20s, because the men who were failing to knock him down in his 40s were head to head monsters.

    Well what if they weren't?

    Were they even the best and brightest of their era?
     
  2. bolo specialist

    bolo specialist Active Member Full Member

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    Were they "always" harnessed to jeeps & dragging them down streets?

    No, fighters have always had customized training regimens that vary depending on the trainer & the fighter's own dedication to training.

    Cooney was no less a feared puncher than Morrison.

    Liakhovich was regarded as a good fighter coming off a big win when Briggs blasted him out of the ring.

    Regardless, Lyle was no less a "can crusher" than Briggs. The only elite HW that he actually stopped/Ko'd was Shavers, who was always known for his unreliable chin & stamina.
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    No imo, he just learned to pace himself better.
     
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  4. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Look at the tales of the tape.

    The one thing that hasn't changed significantly, is the neck measurements.
     
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  5. bolo specialist

    bolo specialist Active Member Full Member

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    Holyfield was, & he teed off w/ everything but the kitchen sink on Foreman.

    Aside from which, Lyle has no more of a claim to being "the best & brightest" of his era than other Old Foreman opponents have w/in theirs.
     
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  6. bolo specialist

    bolo specialist Active Member Full Member

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    Even that still shows at least a slight increase in neck size during his comeback - nevermind that tightening of muscles doesn't automatically equate to wider size anyway.
     
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  7. Markus.C.65

    Markus.C.65 New Member Full Member

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    Foreman 1 fought virtually every round with the intent of inflicting a K.O
    An unsustainable way of fighting in the mid to long term.
    Foreman 2 had plenty of nous and patience.
    He had the poise to ride out situations whereas F1 didn't. F1 had No plan B .
    Totally different approach.
     
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  8. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    I don’t preclude the possibility that a fighter could perhaps employ certain training methods and enhance himself physically to allow him to take punches better.

    Both Liston and Mike Tyson after him were particularly known for exercises that were specifically purposed to strengthen their neck muscles in order to increase/maintain resilience to head shots.

    Stronger neck = less brain swish upon impact makes absolute sense.

    However, to reliably compare old Foreman’s chin to his younger beard, the chin of 70s Foreman has to be accurately gaged.

    When George first left the game, there wasn’t any takeaway suggesting a weak chin. In fact, I believe his chin was viewed as excellent.

    The primary pick up on Foreman was that George was prone to gassing.

    Foreman suffered 4 KDs in total during his first career - 3 of which came AFTER his first ever KD in Zaire - and during a period in which was Foreman was still in a state of disrepair after his first loss to Ali.

    The Young KD was not a reflection of Foreman’s chin at all - Foreman fell briefly from sheer exhaustion in the final round of a 12 rounder fought in exceptional heat. Foreman was already floundering around several rounds prior without even being hit.

    We NEVER saw Foreman SO exhausted ever again. And that also goes for Foreman’s obvious fatigue seen in the later rounds of the Ali fight.

    That’s a MAJOR difference between Young and Old Foreman, right there - and it was an improvement in Foreman (viz better stamina and pacing) that was somewhat separate if not completely isolated from the pure physiological sturdiness of his chin.

    Like it or not, Ali was hitting Foreman hard and often, with laser fast, snappy, accurate, head twisting punches.

    Ali’s offfense along with the exceptional heat in Zaire served to hasten the depletion of Foreman’s already suspect tank.

    Ali’s offence combined with the heat and Foreman’s inherent fatigue issues ultimately saw George off. Ali’s final right hand was a big punch at any rate, and Foreman himself testified to that.

    The ONLY fighter who hurt and dropped Foreman via sheer power, without fatigue being a factor, was Ron Lyle. However, it was Foreman’s first fight back after Zaire - 13 months inactive during the interim.

    For the whole of his career (his first incarnation and comeback included) Foreman always maintained that Ron Lyle hit him the hardest - Lyle therefore being the hardest puncher Foreman ever faced.

    All this isn’t to say that, in all possibility, with greater muscle/weight that second career George didn’t perhaps take a punch better - but it wasn’t as if the young Foreman didn’t have a top tier chin in the first place.
     
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  9. ikrasevic

    ikrasevic Good people of all countries, unite! Full Member

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    With all due respect to everyone, I answered "No" - I will explain why.
    I don't know how much you think Foreman had a thicker neck in his second career (and if he had a thicker neck at all). By that logic, Foreman should have the best punch resistance in the first fight of his second career, because then he was the heaviest; 267lbs (Steve Zouski).
    I also don't believe that Foreman practiced crunching tires, and how much they should be crunched to get better impact resistance.
    And how many pounds should Oliver McCall weigh, they call him squealing tires, and he has a thick neck to be - Oliver McCall.
    So why did I vote "no"?
    Because I think chin is above all - the tissues between the skull and the brain and I don't know how to train them.
    And that's why I agree with:
     
  10. kingfisher3

    kingfisher3 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    this. chin didn't change.
     
  11. Pugilistic Punk

    Pugilistic Punk New Member Full Member

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    Also don't think 91 George could knock out Lyle.
     
  12. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    Liston training his neck muscles - go to :58.

    This content is protected


    Tyson training his neck muscles in similar fashion some 20 odd years later: -

    https://youtu.be/1XPVk5TiOjA?si=8BFq_vUCNEKm3ROt


    The exercises look potentially very dangerous if not done properly and they would also require some steel in the neck in the first place.

    I’ll pass. :D
     
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  13. Pugguy

    Pugguy Ingo, The Thinking Man’s GOAT Full Member

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    FWIW, I found a TOTT for Foreman vs Ali, neck size 17 1/2” a piece.

    For both Foreman vs Cooney and Foreman vs Holyfield, George’s neck was listed as 18” (just 1/2” bigger than 70s Foreman).

    Interestingly, both Holyfield and Cooney had larger necks, 19 1/4” and 19 1/2” respectively.
     
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  14. Ney

    Ney Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The very same.
     
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  15. BCS8

    BCS8 VIP Member Full Member

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    I'm assuming that the bigger guys on steroids that were noted for their power would hit harder than significantly smaller dudes who were often swarmers or boxer types rather than sluggers. Going on visual evidence 70s Foreman could be knocked down by smaller dudes. Going on visual evidence 90s Foreman was cast iron even against bigger punchers. Ergo, Foreman's chin was better (and by chin get that we are talking about things that affect chin like pacing and no more stupid dehydration tricks) when he was older.
     
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