Do you consider Ken Norton a true heavyweight champion?

Absolutely. I also have him at #20 ATG for being a great fighter.

Being knocked out by George Foreman (and past your prime by Cooney and Shavers) is nothing to be ashamed of...they were three of the five greatest punchers who ever lived.

 

No

 

I suppose I have to because I’ve given other champions acknowledgement in similar situations. To be clear this does not mean that I see him or those other guys as “ linear “ but legit belt holders. Jimmy Ellis was another example I was thinking of

 

Yes, might not have won it in the ring, but deserves recognition as one over both the third Ali fight and the whole situation of Spinks being stripped of the WBC just so he wouldn't fight Norton.

 

Norton was Ali's nemesis inside the ring, always giving him a hard time as a difficult style for Ali to beat.

Ali was Norton's nemesis outside the ring. First Ali robbed him (unintentionally) in their 3rd fight. It was obvious the powers that be didn't want Ali losing his title and gave him a gift due to his immense popularity which drew in fans. Ali once again made things hard for Norton (again unintentionally) when Spinks decided to defend against Ali instead (due to getting more money) robbing Norton when he was the legitimate challenger for the title. Norton would have knocked out Spinks and at that stage, would have beaten Ali so convincingly no one would be able to rob him.

Either way, Norton should have won the title at least 1-2x. The sanctioning bodies finally did something right and correctly awarded the championship to Norton since he did everything he was supposed to do and still got screwed over. Sometimes good honest work pays off.

 

Great points, including the cross arm defence being vulnerable to left hooks - the exact punch that started Kenny on his way vs Shavers and Cooney as you’ve described.

Also, it didn’t help that Shavers put on one of his best punching displays for the time the fight lasted. Fast, short, tight and accurate punches. And Earnie looked like he was trained to the second for that fight - he felt that he was avoided for some years and really wanted to step and prove himself.

And that last uppercut (Earnies signature punch) on Norton?, omg, almost tore Ken’s head off. I’ve only seen a head wobble like that when Louis hit Schmeling with his right hand thunderbolt.

 

Cooney and Shavers were certainly nowhere near the top 5 five greatest punchers who ever lived. The hardest maybe, but certainly not the greatest.

 

IMO, you have to win a championship in a fight with a title on the line. Everything else is just wishful thinking. Norton does not qualify.

 

Nope

 

I don’t even though he was a mighty fine fighter.
There again I don’t consider a whole chunk of the alphabet belt holders the last 30 or 40 years as legitimate world champions.

 

You got me, my friend. I did mean hardest punching. We probably have to put Louis and Liston up there as greatest punchers.

 

I have my doubts Cooney is up there in top 5 hardest. Off the top of my head, I'll take Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Wilder, and Baer over him.

 

As far as I understand it, Norton was due to fight the winner of Ali vs Spinks. I remember seeing Norton watching the fight at ringside.

So Ali would have made three defences (Evangelista, Shavers and Spinks) before fighting Norton again.
I wouldn't regard that as him doing everything in his power to avoid Norton.

Spinks took the understandably more lucrative option of defending the title against Ali rather than Norton and was stripped of the WBC title as a result.

Isn't Spinks the one who broke the contract, rather than Ali?

What other rules and promises were supposed to have been broken?

I ask because I'm genuinely curious if there is more to this than I had thought.

 

The thing that inspired me to include him was Foreman saying he never got hit harder, and that even Frazier's hook wasn't close.

 

Definitely not, nor was he a great heavyweight.