Do you love Muhammad Ali? If so why so and if not why not?

The thing with Ali is everyone knows him.

My Grandad who never watched boxing loved watching Ali. Im sure you guys will know someone like that

 

A great start to a deep and wide conversation ... Interesting thread, McGrain.

PetethePrince :good Context fellas, context!

Most of you weren't born yet, am I right? A lot of you weren't here in the U.S. Two criticisms surprise me so far ... Racist and Womanizer. Huh?

I would think that most of you calling him a racist are white, yes? As am I. But if you were a black man, back in the 60's, in America, especially in a Southern State, Kentucky is a Southern State, you were the target of systematic discrimination and racism. Imagine fellas, I know you all love your mothers, watching her from the time that you were old enough to understand what was going on, get treated like a 2nd or 3rd class citizen. How many times would you have to see her disrespected before it would **** you off irreparably? Not many I would guess. Segregated public rest rooms, neighborhoods, schools, water fountains. No colleges available to you other than the black ones. Few good jobs open to you. The idea of becoming a professional, more of a fantasy; and better not talk back or fight back or disrespect a white man. How 'bout this? Though legally the blacks got the right to vote in the 1930's, they were often kept out of the polls, to the extent that JFK at one point had to send troops to the South to make sure black voters were permitted to exercise their legal right. Ali a racist? That's like if you're walking down the street and someone sucker punches you ... but you getting arrested for giving him a good beating.

And the connotation of the term womanizer, implies a guy who angles and plots and deceives to get a woman in the sheets. There is something very unattractive about that guy, I agree. But Ali didn't have to try that hard. If anything he had to keep them away. A black guy bedding a lot of women, white women even, then?! Scandalous. Sex is fun. Sex with a new woman is fun. Don't you agree? Few of us would have, if given Ali's opportunities, had beautiful women throwing themselves at us, always, the character to consistently walk away, IMHO.

As a fighter, he revived the fight game. His loud mouth was more a way to build the gate, at a time when interest in the game was at a low point. His style was a breath of fresh air. A great fighter with all the skill, heart, and toughness to hold your interest, I heard old fighters at the time, fighters that didn't like his mouth, his bragadoccio, his ring calling, say that he was the best thing to happen to the game since WWII.

 

Wasn't it you who thought Hauser's book just was unbearable ass-kissing of Ali?

 

1 a lot of people do that. and that has nothing to do with his fighting ability. it depends on you're own moral standards if you consider that normal behaviour.
2 true.. but on the other hand frazier ain't talking nice about ali also ( atleast now a days)
3 how and in what way ? on this forum there are lot's of threads about the 70ties heavyweights and most of them by normal sain people (at least i believe so)
4 maybe it works. that **** talking as you call it. ali wasn't the only fighter who did it. for example charles said that archie moore called him names during all of their fights. and the best case that it worked for ali is the rumble in the jungle where george foreman got so ****ed up by ali taunting :"is that all you got george ? " and so on. that he threw all these wide swinging blows so after a few rounds he was getting very tired

 

Love-Hate, perhaps, though more love than hate. It's sort of like the band that comes along and makes such profoundly original music that a legion of bands copy the style for the next decade only to fill the airwaves with crap. Can we blame Ali for pale imitators he inspired or the shenanigans that mediocre fighters adopted from his "entertaining" style. I will say that later in his career Ali became something of self-parody, won fights he should have lost and flat-out cheated in the ring. However, Ali "the personality" was able to get away with it.

 

I am seeing a lot of people mounting a defence of Ali's ocasionaly overtly racist atitudes and observations based on the period he lived in.

They may well be right to do so, but if they are then that would have to alow mitigation for some early white fighters who expressed atitudes that might be considered racist by todays standards.

 

Indeed. But I haven't heard anything Ali do as bad as what Jeffries did when he said something like, "I'll never fight a n*gger." or something. I could be mistaken.

The thing is... because Ali is such a legend he gets knocked the most because of it. Culturally, the 60's and 70's were a wild and radical time. That in and of itself while being a black near teenage/young adult in his 20's makes me understand Ali furthermore. I can't say I wouldn't have been somewhat similar in my thinking than him. Who knows... but I don't have that life experience. And I don't think Ali was that bad. He was wily and quite wise. The worst part was his ties to the nation of islam and Elijah Muhammad. The truth is... Ali did one and said another. He didn't back Elijia is much in action but I'm not sure because Ali could've been trying to use white people for his own gain. I just don't see it as that. I think he got smarter when he was older and his leaving of the nation of islam is an admittance to this. It bothers me when people here say he isn't bright or intelligent. I mean really, then you're basically just saying all boxers are dumb. Ali was smart. Mis-guided? Sure. Manipulated? You bet. Add that to the fact that he was a rising star in the most radical time during the civil rights movement. Ali isn't just an ebodiment of himself but his times... like most men/legends. It was a lot to take. If people can make excuses for the way Tyson is and how his character was then you sure can for Ali. The difference is Ali is just revered as being a great person. He is, but of course he was far from perfect.

The worst is not giving him the benefit. He was inspirational and huge to black Americans and people of all kinds even if that wasn't his intentions. What he did in and out of the ring... he wasn't just a boxer. He transcended the sport inside and out of the ring. Some fighters will die or cheat to win and get that belt. Ali surrendered that belt to keep intact his soul. Maybe that's being over dramatic. He went through a lot, and standing up for what you believe in the face of strong sacrifice/consequence is a great principle. With Ali the good outweighs the bad.

 

One of the things that did not help Ali, was having a direct association to Malcolm X during a time when he was mascarading around America, using reverse racism to raly young African Americans in a hate campaign. Ali picked up a lot of new words from Malcolm like " uncle Tom " which he later used on Joe Frazier. I don't know if Ali was truly a racist or if he was simply manafesting the thoughts, feelings, and attitudes of other black figures who truly WERE.....

 

Very good point. I heard it all from both sides, and not just white vs. black or black vs. white. I grew up in a neighborhood that was mixed. We had blacks, Italians, Irish, some Jewish and Eastern European; in a given day you'd hear 'em all, d*go, k*ke, n*gger, pig **** shanty, p*lock, on and on and on until the words meant nothing anymore. Nobody liked intermarriage, nobody wanted to be a pioneer, but deep down, from what I've seen, damn few of them were actual racists. Meaning that there was no deep hatred, or a conscious, sincere superiority. We were all bottom feeders, scramblimg for our piece of the American dream. The only people that did not express opinions like this openly were the onesup in the ivory towers, the ones who were so far above the fray it needn't concern them at all.

 

I respect Ali for being a great fighter, and I enjoy watching his fights. I admire the fact that he travelled all over the world, and took on all comers.

But as a person, he always seemed like a bit of a hypocrite (a "devout" Muslim that cheated on his wife with a "kaffa"), who was being manipulated by others. Some of his behavior towards Frazier in particular, was disgraceful as well.

 

Great posts. I figured I didn't even need to get into the whole boxing aspect. Trash talking, picking the round, the poetry, and that speed and movement as a HW! Ali really invented rap. Which is why they came out with that ESPN Ali Rap documentary. I'M A BAD MAN! Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee, rumble young man rumble, ahhh!

What I don't like is saying the big hate between Ali fans and Joe fans. It's weird. The lack of respect is crazy (None of this on ESB by the way).

 

Ok, I'm a kid at the time, but even then what I got out of that was Joe Frazier, by all appearances a sweet, humble man, but because he didn't take a stand, because he wasn't as eloquent as some, didn't voice an opinion as to whether he was in or out, could be seen as a sympathizer, a traitor. Again, with hindsight, we know this is not true. But how farfetched would it be to realize that a lot of black men if they found themselves in a spot to pull down some heavy bread would just keep their mouths shut and take it while the taking was good? Can we really blame them? But truthfully fellas, believe it or not, it was a heady time in America, and not just with the racial issue. Vietnam splintered this country. Young men didn't volunteer, they were dragged off to fight a war that half the country didn't believe in. Even as a kid I saw it: People took up sides, lined up on one or the other. There were few who shrugged it off and said, Hey, whatever. And if you did, and were in the public eye, you were seen as a guy that didn't have courage of your convictions. Unfair? Yes, but only in 20/20 hindsight.

 

Yes I do, he's a pure legend, that words often overused by Ali for good reason is boxings biggest legend that truly transcends the sport. He had charisma, heart, bravado, massive talent and had the bottle to take a stand on his beliefs, which few men do

As for the criticisms of his racism, well he was to a degree but you have to look at the time Ali lived in. Black people were treated like **** in the 60s and many were indoctorated by society as whole that they were lesser beings. Ali couldn't even get a drink in a cafe after winning the Gold Medal because he black.

I admire Ali's bottle for challenging those perceptions, the fact he said 'I'm pretty' challenged social norms as black was considered ugly. He clearly saw his religion as a way of empowering black people. Ofcourse the NOI has some insane theories and Ali has since converted to mainstream Islam. I suppose he rolled with.

His prior belief in segregation I ofcourse disagree with but it was something that was indoctorinated into him to a degree. I do to a level understand he may have wanted to be around his own people when growing up in a white society that treats black people as lesser beings.

As a person I certainly don't think Ali treated white people lesser due to race

 

Nobody is perfect but Ali amazed me inside the ring & made me laugh outside it & at the end of the day.....

The good of Ali >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The bad of Ali.

The End !

 

No, it's not racism at all. These views represent racial separatism advocated by a member of a minority group whose people have been owned and forced to interbreed with the white colonial masters. Americans Indians have likewise resisted interbreeding because of what it portends to the continued physical existence of their people.

Racism cannot be reduced to prejudice or racial separation without context, and power relations make the context. It is a completely different thing for, on the one hand, the dominant group to prevent minorities from accessing the same institutions or to forbid interracial mingling, than it is for, on the other hand, the oppressed minority to advocate racial separatism.

One of the methods of genocide is to assimilate a minority into the majority through interbreeding, thus physically erasing the minority. By your definition of racism, it would be racist for a people to resist complete annhilation through assimilation. If black people as a minority want to protect their numbers by resisting interbreeding, then that is part of the struggle against colonialism.

For the record, I don't agree with Ali. I don't believe in racial separatism. But that doesn't make what Ali said racist.